44-14036 in the 364th FG?
Investigating about that plane 44-14036, crashed on november 25th 1944 (pilot leo F. Skenyon, MIA) as flying in the 162nd TRS, I learned that it maybe would have flown in the 364th FG in july-august 1944.
I have all about his service in the 162nd TRS, but am still searching about his precedent affectation in the 8th AF...and about possible picture of it
Do someone have element that could confirm that that plane was in the 364th FG for some weeks?
Maybe a picture???
thanks for any possible help,
Mat,maybe you look at Little friends of Peter Rendall.
Norman Bettin flew also an Photo Recce in a P-51D of 364th FG.
I have a lot of photos of Bettin,maybe is Skenyon also on some photos.
USAAF & RAF Researcher in the Nijkerk,Putten Voorthuizen area.Crashes in Holland & Europehttp://www.groenegroep.nl
member SGLO AirWar StudyGroup, Holland
Member of the Dutch Empire ( MDE)
Yes, they aircraft was with the 364th FG. It showed up on an AMD (Aircraft Maintainence Department) Report that I found at NARA College Park. The Report was dated 10 September 1944 and was for an Early Return (ERTN) for mechanical reasons. Sadly, there was no Squadron listing. The aircraft was most likely deployed in the time frame of 30 July to 6 August 1944 to an unknown Squadron/Group. Ted51
Thanks for your kind answer;
It the 364th Fg lists from Littlefriends are 44-14030, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35...but not 36!
Mystery stays opened!
Concerning the TR pilot you evocated flying a converted plane from the 364th FG,do you know in which one TRS he flew with?
Thanks for your kind help!
Skenyon was first assigned to the 12th PRS/10th PRG and then transfered to the 162nd TRS/363rd TRG (later 1st ProvRG) on 5 September 1944. The P-51s from 44-14030 were deployed like this:
44-14030 was 160TRS
44-14031 was 5Y-P
44-14032 was 5Y-W
44-14033 was 5E-M
44-14034 was 5Y-U
44-14035 was 5E-A
44-14036 was C3-
44-14037 was A9-
44-14038 was CS-G/
44-14039 was SX-U
The other 160th TRS aircraft could possibly have been with the 364th but it is not certain as I have no records that would say this for sure. The Group/Squadron microfilms are not very detailed and leave many unanswered quesitons. Hope that this helps a little bit more. Ted51
very interesting and important document; would it be possible to have a scan of that page evocating 44-14036 maybe?
In the individual aircraft record card that I have are evocated the following dates and elements:
M Y ASC PAO PPJ92753RD P51D44 14036 7 7 2365 6 26 4200
SOXO G P51D 8 44 14036 723 44
SOXO A P51D 8 44 14036 7 7 44
GLUE 9AFCON MIA R P51D 8 44 14036 112844 11845
(same line again)
Some planes from the 382nd FS were affected to the new 162nd TRS on date of its re-designation, (= 3 september 44). The 382nd was disbanded and didn't exist anymore after that date.
Impossible for me to say if 44-14036 was one of the old planes of the 382nd FS.
What you say about your record let us learn that it was for a short time (july?) in the 364th FG, ...but don't let us conclude as sure that it would NOT have been serving in the 382nd FS in late august 44...or ?
What I have red on the code-pages I received with it , is that "SOXO" is code for 8th AF, and GLUE is the one for 9th AF: on november 28th 1944 was the plane visibely declared MIA (it was lost on 25th), and maybe on january 18th 45 as retired (=R?) from the lists?
I cannot see where appears the 364th FG unit code on theses numbers; is it evocated (with a code maybe) in that document (in the first line maybe)?
If you can have some explanation about the coded lines there I would appreciate, and especially concerning the first one!
Thanks for your very kind help, Ted!
I answered your precedent email before redaing the one with the planes list (with fuselage squadron codes/lettering) you gave later.
As you said "the planes were deployed as follows"... does it mean:
- that the listed immatriculations/squadron codes that you give were the FIRST ONES that the planes received as they arrived in Europe,
- or can the C3-? be for the 44-14036 a second immatriculation if it would have served - as evocated- in the 364th FG before?
Other manner to ask it: would you believe that the C3-code of the 382nd FS was THE FIRST ONE of 44-14036 or do you take it as NOT SURE?
Very important for me!
The many questions you ask will have to answered in 2 posts. I will deal with the IARc (Individual Aircraft Record card) first.
IARcs do not usually show transfers of aircraft between AFs in the ETO and never between Groups/Squadron. The dates that are most important in the IARc are:
1) date the aircraft left the US
2) CON date which indicates that last date that the airframe was on the officially in AF custody.
The Dates associated with the G &, A codes for the most part are not really accuarate indicators and are only approximations of A-when the aircraft was available for deployment to a War Zone and G when the aircraft was available for deployment to a specific Group. The best rule of thumb that I have come up with is an approximaiton that from the time an airframe left the US to when it was deployed to a Group was between 28-35 days. Generally the MIA dates for any one aircraft are fairly accurate with the exception of some of the 9th AF P-51s which might show dates 1 to 2 days later than the actual loss to cover the 48 hours needed to qualify for a MACR.
Bottom line is that IARcs are only good for dates and not actual identifications of aircraft. It is possible to use the Proj # in the right hand corner of the card as an aid in identification but not soley. Dates of other events in the aircraft's history usually come from Form 14 Accident Reports, Encounter Reports, and Group/Squaron microfilms that sometimes mention Forced Landings. Sadly, the 364th records are not very complete in their Group/Squaron records. To date I have not been able to locate the Massed Flight Lists though there is some indication that they do exist. The Massed Flight Lists would certainly add a great deal to the aircraft histories as they do for other Groups. The individual aircraft letter codes that you mentioned came from photos, Encounter Reports, or some of the Form 14s.
I will write again tomorrow. Ted51
On the question of individual aircraft codes here is the best answer that I can give.
Individual aircraft letter codes were not applied to aircraft until they were deployed to the Squadron level. the individual aircraft letter code (A-Z and the Bar -) could be and were changed frequently with no real rhyme or reason. Unless one has dated records or photos it is impossible to tell when codes changed or were applied. the records that I have for the 10 serial numbers that you mentioned are not complete enough to determine changes in codes or whether there were even mulitple codes involved. However, with the informaiton that I have I can say that the that the 364th deployments were first and that the 363rd TRG or 1st ProvRG deployments were second. These can be verified by either/or Form 14 Accident Reports or Encounter Reports.
Because of where I live in rural midwest USA I do not have high speed internet and doing attachments is very difficult for the upload. As I remember the AMD documents for the 364th from NARA they were not on the best of quality paper and the ink had faded somewhat so that even if I could do an attachment I am not sure that it could be read well.
If there is anyhting further that I can help with please let me know. Ted51
Thanks for your both every detailled answers, Ted;
just a question before the rest, Ted; are you Ted Dam... maybe?
About your answers, if I resume what you said:
- it is prouved by your document of the NARA that the 44-14036 had - for a (short) time- been flying in the 364th FG
- but we cannot exclude that that plane after that could have flown with the 382nd FS (in august for example)
- the C3 code that you have in your list of the 44-14030 to 44-14039 is the only one squadron code we know for that plane 44-14036, but was probably not the first one, but probably second one (after one probable code of the one of the 3 squadrons of the 364th FG).
That list of 10 planes affectation you gave me is a reconstitution of what you - or other reserachers- have found about the affectation of thoses plane, but isn't a list of WWII which could have systematicaly given the first deployment of those 10 planes as just coming from the states;
Am I OK with that?
Thanks very much for your very kind and detailled help, Ted! very helpfull for me!
the mechanical operation dated about september 10th probably consisted in transforming that P51D ionan F6 as the plane was reafected in teh 162nd TRS;