LockedHot!aaf or B24 related ?

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Alex Smart
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aaf or B24 related ?

Hello,
Am seeking info on aircraft of VP-61.
serial numbers and matching a/c in squadron numbers.
I know that the "SD" code/number was worn above wing.
was it also worn below ?
Thanks
Alex
post edited by Alex Smart -
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    mbee53
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    THey why not go on a Navy Forum instead of here?

    Mark
    #2
    Alex Smart
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    wow,
    such a swift and venomous response.
    Exactly what I tried to avoid.
    So I take the guidance from you Mark that the
    B24 Best web forum accessable via this Armyairforces Forum
    will only accept requests about WW2 and ONLY Airforce.
    Thank you again for your help
    Alex
     
    #3
    jpeters140
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    Alex...No need to get upset....the Title of these Forums is after all, "Army Air Forces".
     
    Either myself, or one of the Moderators would have suggested the same answer as Mark. 
     
    A suggestion, if you will....input "Navy VP-61" into your search engine....I suspect that there will be information available.
     
    Scott Burris,the owner of these Forums, served in the U.S.Navy, but wanted these Forums to Honor one of his Grandfathers who served in the 381st BG, 8th AF.
     
    Jim :-) 

    James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions 99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45 M/Sgt USAF (Retired)
    #4
    AlanStarcher
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    Alex -- I like this website, it's loaded with photos and info;  as they say, nearly anything and everything VP-related:
    http://www.vpnavy.org/
     
    Here in Jacksonville, I'm across the river from Jax NAS -- the P-3 Orions fly over every day.  Jax NAS will also be the first base to put the new P-8 into service next year.
     
    -- Alan
    [EDIT:  Not so off-topic, you could say that the B-24 was one of the "forefathers" of the antisub patrol a/c -- the Liberator was used as a long-range antisubmarine patrol aircraft, just as the P-3 and the P2V "Neptune" that Alex is researching.]
     
    #5
    Alex Smart
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    Hello Allan,
    I had seen the website you gave the link for.
    Sadly there is very little on the PB4Y-1's that were used by  VP-61.
    Nothing anywhere else as far as I could find, only a couple of pictures .
    I also now see that I omitted to include "PB4Y-1" in my first post.
    So any serial numbers and a/c in squadron number link ups would be great.
    Especialy those that were used in Alaska, six a/c I understand. So what of the rest of the Squadron where were they while the six were in Alaska ?
    These six were as far as I understand the very last B-24's in military service ?
    Thanks again Alan,
    Alex
    #6
    AlanStarcher
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    So you ARE "on-topic" after all!  ;)  Alex, I have some sources that I want to check;  some of the B-24 books that I have go into detail on the PBYs.
     
    Can you re-title the thread to indicate the PB4Y connection?
     
    Mods, even though this concerns Navy aircraft, since it is B-24-related could we continue the discussion here?
    #7
    jpeters140
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    Alan...While the PB4Y-1s were B-24s modified for the Navy...this is STILL an Air Force Forum, and, in my opinion, does not diminish the fact that the PB4Y-1s belong in a Navy forum...and not in an Air Force Forum.
     
    If the subject was the C-47, there was also a Navy R4D,and, and C-54 equivalent was the Navy R5D....so let us stick strictly to the Air Force subjects.
     
    Jim :-)

    James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions 99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45 M/Sgt USAF (Retired)
    #8
    AlanStarcher
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    From Frederick Johnson's book, B-24 Liberator, "the Navy retained Privateers to augment P2V Neptunes in patrol work.  PB4Y-1s continued to serve in Navy photo mapping squadrons well into the 1950s."
    ...
    "In 1949, VP-61 earned a flying safety award for keeping its six PB4Y1-P (P designated Photo) Liberators flying for 5,000hr without an accident. ... For the two years prior to the award, VP-61 extensively mapped Alaska, including 68,000 suqare miles of the slope of Alaska, to be used in oil exploration in Naval Petroleum Reserve Number Four. ... "
     
    "During 1948, VP-61 practiced its skills over the Imperial Valley of California before returning to tackle Alaska again. ..."
     
    "Records kept by the Navy indicate the last squadron use of twin-tail Liberators was with VP-62, flying P4Y-1P (the B was deleted from nomenclature) aircraft on May 31, 1956."
     
    There are more details of the mapping, the cameras carried, and the color schemes of the PBYs.
     
    -- Alan
    #9
    AlanStarcher
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    Alex, in most of the Privateer photos that I'm seeing in these books, the squadron two-letter designation was (sometimes) carried on the top of the right wing, often with the three-digit airplane number, and (most times) on the outside of the vertical stabiliser(s). None show any markings underwing except the national insignia under the starboard wing.
     
    #10
    AlanStarcher
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    Alan Blue's book, "The B-24 Liberator," has a photo of two VP-61 Privateers over Alaska on the title pages 2-3.  It appears that the top surfaces of the wings were painted a lighter color, possibly white, from the outboard engines to tips.  They carry the large "SD" squadron code on their tails and a large single-digit plane number on the front fuselage.
     
    #11
    B-24 Best Web
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    Alex - You're on the right forum!!
    VP-61 Aircraft...
    http://www.vpnavy.com/vp61_aircraft.html

    Daniel L. Stockton *B-24 Best Web "Over 12000 Images!!"...

    http://www.b24bestweb.com/
     
    Are you on FACEBOOK? "B-24 Discussion GROUP"...
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/b24bestweb/
    #12
    WillowRun
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    Good morning, Gentleman!  I found this particular Thread an "enigma" as it seemed like a possible discussion of "spirit or letter of the law." Here is my take... Having been a member of the B24bestweb.com over the years, I was pleased to see that Scott had incorporated it into our Site and made it a forum. As for the Libs themselves (stats, photos, variants, technology, etc.),  everything and almost anything about the B-24 is (will be) available thru this channel. With that being said, here is the "slippery slope."  Yes, this is an Army Air Forces Site as Jim has pointed out, and there are Navy Sites available as Alan has pointed out, but this is, IMHO,a unique forum dealing with anything about the Liberator. Therefore Alex's initial inquiry is valid, and Mark's terse answer went right to the chase, but I believe it is not so "off-topic for the Site" as one would suspect.  I believe common sense will keep it "on target" and, if  not, a Moderator will. Interestingly, I've noticed that Posts #4 and #5 have indicated examples of both the "letter and the spirit of the law." Many years ago at WR, this pic hung among a collection of FO pix, but was not identified with a caption, "just another pic of a Lib."  Although, I don't have the S/N, it turned out to be a "well-weathered" PB4Y-1. Here is the link to this pic from the "Heavy and Very-Heavy Sub-forum:  http://forum.armyairforces.com/tm.aspx?m=167883&high=PB4Y-2 .  

    Attached Image(s)


    Best Regards!
    Steven Puhl
    Ford Willow Run Bomber Plant (FO) Historian
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    #13
    WillowRun
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    AlanStarcher
    So you ARE "on-topic" after all!  ;)  Alex, I have some sources that I want to check;  some of the B-24 books that I have go into detail on the PBYs.
    Can you re-title the thread to indicate the PB4Y connection?

    Mods, even though this concerns Navy aircraft, since it is B-24-related could we continue the discussion here?

    Alan,  I see no problem with queries that might arise here (my highlight in your post), and, since there are already 3 Moderators involved, I believe you are "in good hands."  BTW, I did a "search" just on the "Heavy and Very Heavy Bombers" sub-forum using the keyword: PB4Y. I came up with lots of info including the "link" about my "unidentified pic" in post #13.  As an aside, back in the 1980s the Plant Manager of our GM WR plant (former FO bomber plant) had acquired a Navy PB4Y-2 "fire suppression" Privateer with the "dream" of converting it to a "B-24" static display at the historic plant. Here is the link (2007) to that "dream." http://forum.armyairforces.com/tm.aspx?m=127857&high=PB4Y-2

    Best Regards!
    Steven Puhl
    Ford Willow Run Bomber Plant (FO) Historian
    ADMINISTRATOR: http://www.armyairforces.com/
    Life Member: Yankee Air Museum
    Member: 8TH AF Historical Society
    Member: 2ND Air Division Historical Society 
     
    #14
    mbee53
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    I guess I have been corrected by the moderator.  Maybe Scott should change the name of the forum.  It seems that nothing is off-topic.

    Mark
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    Re:Not strictly ww2 or aaf... (permalink)
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    note to Mark:

    Anything "B-24" (Related!!) is AOK here...
    Thanks for your concern!!

    Daniel L. Stockton *B-24 Best Web "Over 12000 Images!!"...

    http://www.b24bestweb.com/
     
    Are you on FACEBOOK? "B-24 Discussion GROUP"...
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    #16
    AlanStarcher
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    AAF or B-24 related? (permalink)
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    And there's the rub, eh?  Dan, in the "old" BestB24Web forum, you had a specific section for PBYs, correct?  Would you find it too restrictive to confine our converstions to only ArmyAir Force subjects?  Or did I open a can of worms?  Not sure if you had discussed this fully with the staff here before deciding to make the move, or if this is one of those unforeseen situations.  (And I know this sidebar is off-topic -- oh, well, "rules were made to be broken."  Except that rule.)
     
    -- Alan
    #17
    AlanStarcher
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    Re:AAF or B-24 related? (permalink)
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    Alex -- one more for the road.  Those two photos of VP-61 Privateers over Alaska on the vpnavy.org site are very similar to the title page shot in Allan Blue's book -- you can see the light-colored wingtips.
    [EDIT]  The next-to-last photo near the bottom, shows a "SD" Liberator with the plane number and squadron code on the top of the starboard wing, although the wingtips are not painted the lighter color as in the preceding photos. 
     
    -- Alan
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    Alex Smart
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    Re:AAF or B-24 related? (permalink)
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    Hello,
    Thank you Daniel, Alan and Steven,
    Your help has been much apreciated .
    When I started this thread i did not forsee such a turmoil.
    Hence the original title which I have now changed.
    There are only three sites that I know of that also deal with US "Navy"
    aviationarchaeology.com; which has a section on the Navy B24's all are said to be listed.
    Accident reports .com; and the vp navy.com.
    Thanks for the details given and links to older threads, I will look at them .
    From what I have gleaned -
    VD-5 became VPP-1 which in turn became VPB-61 then VP-61 from September 48. But that month may be wrong as the photo caption in "B24 Liberator in action" No:80 gives photo by Robert L. Lawson as alaska on 14th July 48.
    Colours are also said to be Navy sea-blue ans Special Artic Red markings on the tail surfaces and outer wing panels. Squadron markings are in white on outside of fins and at least the uper right outer wing .
    The two Squadron Signal books on Navy Air Colors show other Navy a/c of the 1945-48 period to have Squadron markings under the left wing. hence my querry on these PB4Y-1P's.
    Again many thanks
    Alex
    #19
    jpeters140
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    Re:AAF or B-24 related? (permalink)
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    I do not mean this to be argumentative, but, if we are to include ALL B-24s, to include the Navy PB4Y-1s, ...should we  NOT also, include the other aircraft that were lend-leased to the Brits AND Russia ? ? ?   Bombers,to include the RAF B-17s, the P-39s given to the Russians, and all other aircraft to foreign governments ?
     
    Where are the limits...where does it start and where does it end...and what aircraft and governments are included and which are excluded ?
     
    This why I objected to including the Navy PB-4Y-1s.
     
    Perhaps the need exists for a solid course of action to be enacted, and guidelines set forth. ?
     
    Just questions, that I feel need to answered.  :-)
     
    I am not trying to put the "Bite" on Scott Burris, the founder of this website, but, perhaps, a consensus of opinion, needs to be discussed among contributing members of these Forums,as to what needs to be included and what is excluded.
     
    Jim :-)

    James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions 99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45 M/Sgt USAF (Retired)
    #20
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