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Helpful Reply868th BombSqdn Tail Marking

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Bob Watkins
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2012/03/21 16:57:00 (permalink)
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868th BombSqdn Tail Marking

Can anyone provide information as to specifically what color the 'S' in the 868thBS
insignia was? I've seen it displayed as both yellow and red and haven't been able
to nail down anything solid on the subject.
 
Any help of suggestions are welcome.
Bob


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25Kingman49
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/21 18:30:31 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
+2 (1)
Bob,
Where are those pesky WW II in color photographers when you need them? You’ve probably seen the photos attached already and it’s difficult to determine color in black and white images. The one photo is of the group patch, that doesn’t necessarily represent what was on the tail. The black B-24 is in a bone yard, not sure what to make of that. The photo of the downed B-24 would be the most suggestive of possible color.
 
Being old enough to remember black and white TV this downed aircraft would suggest to me that the “S’ was red with a border in white, but this is only an old man’s guess…
 
I can find no actual color photos of any of these B-24’s. As they were radar night fighters I’m surprised they had any color marking at all. WW II stealth was not refined to a high degree.  
 
Here is a link to another forum that leads back to this one in some instances, but it shows who was involved in the posts.
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t80452.html
 
This is probably not as much help as you might have wished for…
Scott M.  

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Bob Watkins
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/21 21:16:16 (permalink)
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Scott,


Thanks for the feedback.
There aren't a whole lot of photo's of this squadron out there, b&w or otherwise and
when viewed side by side one would almost swear that both red and yellow were
used on different aircraft at different times. The problem is that the color red is
notorious for fading under UV conditions, making it appear much lighter over time
in a b&w photo, which thus easily to misinterpret as yellow.


I was hoping that someone might come up with a color wartime shot but don't know
if I want to hold my breath waiting.
 
Much obliged for your posting.
Bob
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/21 21:31:25 (permalink)
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Bob,
 
Glad to oblige, wish I could have been of more help. I too learned a good deal from your post as this would not have been a subject matter I would have searched for on my own…
 
That’s what’s so great about this forum; you learn something new each day!
 
Best Regards,
Scott M.
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/22 08:44:41 (permalink)
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Gentlemen,
 
Is the attached just a regular, non-radar equipped, night bomber, and not associated with the Snoopers??
It too appears to be painted black, and was part of the 5th BG / 23rd BS.
 

 
 

Charles Daubach
son of:  S/Sgt Charles W. Daubach
13th AAF / 5th BG(H)
Aerial Gunner 611 -- 1944-45
U S Navy
Electronics Tech 2nd class
USS Massey DD778 1946-1950

 

     
Kiwi Escape
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/22 08:56:01 (permalink)
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It is likely that a number of aircraft were painted in the black scheme for allocation to the 868th, (this would have been done at a mod centre as they came off the production line as NMF (unpinted).
 
The feeling amongst students of the SWPA is that by the time these aircraft reached the front line the supply of LABS aircraft outsripped the need for them as Japanese shipping targets were decimated.  The aircarft in this pic does have the SCR IFF antenna just behind the white rectangle at the nose, but it is difficult to tell if the rest of the LABS equipment is fitted.
 
There are a number of examples of "black" aircraft seemingly destined for 868th being used by 5th BG
 
Pete

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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/22 12:52:21 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
+2 (1)

Daniel L. Stockton *B-24 Best Web "Over 12000 Images!!"...

http://www.b24bestweb.com/
 
Are you on FACEBOOK? "B-24 Discussion GROUP"...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/b24bestweb/
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/22 15:53:33 (permalink)
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b24bestweb

Another "Tail Shot"...
http://www.b24bestweb.com/ladyjuneii3.htm

Thanks Dan, this is the best close-up I've seen yet of the 868thBS 'S' tail marking.
Two questions;
1] Any chance that you could send me a larger image for Vol.V?
2] Based upon your involvement with this subject, what would your 'best'guess'
    be concerning the color of that 'S'?
 
Bob
P.S. In case you haven't checked your e-mail lately, many thanks for fielding that
       other photo matter so quickly. Oz shot me off a terrific image.
       Much obliged to you and all the other guys at B-24 Best Web.
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/23 11:22:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
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skybear45
2] Based upon your involvement with this subject, what would your 'best guess'
    be concerning the color of that 'S'?

Although it really depends upon the film being used (whether it appears lighter or darker), a good indication of the color RED is when the fire ext. door panel is shown in the same shot as the tail, and they match shades!
My best guess is that the "S" was YELLOW.
 
Still looking for the HI-RES shot...

Daniel L. Stockton *B-24 Best Web "Over 12000 Images!!"...

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Bob Watkins
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/24 13:56:57 (permalink)
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Thanks Dan,
 
Yellow would be my best first guess also, and I may just have to go with
that, as this particular emblem has defied every attempt made to date to
come up with a grey-scale/color analysis.
 
Bob
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/24 22:40:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
+2 (1)
skybear45

Can anyone provide information as to specifically what color the 'S' in the 868thBS
insignia was? I've seen it displayed as both yellow and red and haven't been able
to nail down anything solid on the subject.

Any help of suggestions are welcome.
Bob




Harlan Price (pilot/Snooper) told me several years ago the logo was yellow and black.  There was never a Snooper patch.  Harlan has passed on so I can only pass on what I was told.  I do believe the logo you have pictured is correct. 
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/24 23:07:05 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
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I agree. Also, Mr Price used to get PO'd when the 43rd BG / 63rd BS referred to themselves as "Snoopers"!!
(I miss Harlan - RIP) † Harlan Price (Deceased 15 Oct 2003)...
http://www.b24bestweb.com/sunsetter4.htm

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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/25 07:50:37 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
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It seems there may have been 2 versions, as some of the tails show an outlined base colour which does not have the contrast of yellow on black, and at least one artist took it to be red.
 
  lady june II_...868BS (2) lady june II_...868BS (2)

Pete
Bob Watkins
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/25 10:34:56 (permalink)
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Kiwi Escape

It seems there may have been 2 versions, as some of the tails show an outlined base color which does not have the contrast of yellow on black, and at least one artist took it to be red.



Pete

Pete,
Thanks for posting this illustration. I've seen this work before and it's a very well done
painting, but we don't know what reference material the artist had to work with, a factor
that makes images like this, regardless of how well executed, virtually useless for the
purpose [font="'book antiqua', palatino; font-size: medium"]of conclusive research.
Having said that, I have come across a couple of b&w wartime images that could be
interrupted as displaying the 'S' in red, but these images are subject to such variables as
ambient lightning, film type, exposure time, etc, etc.
I tend to agree with the consensus that the 'S' was actually yellow but this looks one of those
issues, however minor, to which we may never find a conclusive answer. As such I think
the best course of action will be to show both versions in my next book with a qualifying
statement regarding the lack of 'carved-in-stone' evidence on this subject.
 
Thanks to all for your most helpful input on this matter.
Bob
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/03/31 13:57:24 (permalink)
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Bob,
 
I just came across the below listed web address during an internet "SNOOPER" search. If you scroll down to the bottom of the page, there's a Snooper emblem shown in Yellow. Although I certainly don't know anymore about it other than what's shown, I found it relevant to this thread and thought you may not have seen it before.  
 
http://www.enter.net/~rocketeer/13thaaf/13th868th.html

Charles Daubach
son of:  S/Sgt Charles W. Daubach
13th AAF / 5th BG(H)
Aerial Gunner 611 -- 1944-45
U S Navy
Electronics Tech 2nd class
USS Massey DD778 1946-1950

 

     
Bob Watkins
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/04/03 11:04:33 (permalink)
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Charles,


Thanks for the follow-up.
I have visited this site in the past and attempted to contact the web master in hopes
of getting in touch with a historian or archivist for the 868thBS but have had no
response to date.
 
Bob
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Re:868th BombSqdn Tail Marking 2012/04/03 12:34:32 (permalink)
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Bob.
 
Are you familiar with this book “B-24 Liberator Units of the Pacific War" by Robert f Dorr? Sorry about this link “Not an Advertisement!!” but it gives a peek inside. Although I didn’t see a ref. to the 868th there are pages omitted from the preview, looks like there maybe some color plates here?
http://www.amazon.com/reader/1855327813?_encoding=UTF8&page=98#reader_1855327813
 
Being an author, you’ve probably seen this work before.
 
Scott  
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