Which ship, which crew...?

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War, MIA, & Internees' started by BMBazooka, Feb 9, 2017.

  1. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    24 May Luftwaffe reports - several interesting aircraft at 1210 - 1220 hrs (Pg 7)

    24 may pg 1.JPG 24 may pg 2.JPG 24 may pg 3.JPG 24 may pg 4.JPG 24 may pg 5.JPG 24 may pg 6.JPG 24 may pg 7.JPG 24 may pg 8.JPG
     
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  2. Alex Smart

    Alex Smart Active Member

    Hello,
    Looks like they were six B17's.
    Serial number of one is given.
    Alex
     
  3. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    First thing I checked , but no joy. Maybe someone else will have better luck. You sometimes need some familiarity with the city names and what's near what.


    Hal, these are on fold3.com as part of the MACRs. You just go to BROWSE the MACRs instead of searching for a particular plane. Go to the year (1944) then scroll down to the end (i.e. past all the plane numbers). You will get to a section with "letters". Some are plane codes, e.g. Beaufighters had serial numbers starting with two letters, but you will also find month names. Depending on the year you can search for the Month, in this case MAY. Sometimes several months are together, e.g. Jan -Mar, etc. They are not hard to find after you do a few.

    Some other tricks would be to search for city names, or if you find a crash on one of these lists, search for the associated KU number.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
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  4. Alex Smart

    Alex Smart Active Member

    Hello,
    from this sites data section shows 34 B17 losses for this date.
    Perhaps all are in Fold 3. I looked at a few but even n those there are time difference's.
    Time last seen/heard from. And time given in German docs that show time of crash or time of capture.
    Here are a couple to start with
    On the KU page you gave time stated as 1210.
    42-97845
    In the MACR the time given is 1300 hrs.

    42-102648 time in German docs gives 1210.
    42-39924 time in German docs gives 1220.

    I'm afraid you will just have to trawl through the MACR's in Fold3 to get the answers to your question. Should be fun, only six needed out of thirty+.
    Good hunting
    Alex
     
  5. Lucky Partners

    Lucky Partners Well-Known Member

    Thanks Rolland!
     
  6. Lucky Partners

    Lucky Partners Well-Known Member

    OK, utilizing the documents suggested by Terveurn I have identified two aircraft that went down on 24 May 1944 in the vicinity of Buckow as stated by Suzanne in her initial post. Unfortunately these documents do not provide serial number information for these two aircraft so we are not really any closer to the solution.


    Fold3_Page_59.jpg


    Fold3_Page_64.jpg
     
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  7. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    OK KU 1942 is 42-31306 and AV 1291 same aircraft

    ku 1942 pg 2.JPG ku 1942 pg 3.JPG ku 1942 pg 4.JPG ku 1942 pg 5.JPG ku 1942 pg 6.JPG 1942 pg 1.JPG ku 1942 pg 7.JPG
     
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  8. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

  9. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    photos from the 100th BG - combat damage on 6 March 1944

    306 b.JPG 306 c.JPG 306 d.JPG
     
  10. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Active Member

    Gentlemen, I am overwhelmed.
    I go for it this evening.
     
  11. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    The problem I have with saying the plane is 42-31306 comes when I look at the map. The "Bukow" referred to at the start of the thread is located here, just north of Teterow:

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/53°48'09.7"N+12°37'25.2"E/@53.8015406,12.6170325,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d53.802697!4d12.623679



    This "Bukow" is not 25 km NW of Wittstock, it is more like 80 km due north. I doubt the Germans would make a mistake of 55 km.

    When you start looking at what is 25 km NW of Wittstock, you see names that appear in the MACR, such as "Silmersdorf", which is here: 53.266163, 12.127397, Grabow-"Buckow" which is here 53.253969, 12.152148,

    A crash site between "Buckow" and "Silmersdorf" which could be about here: 53.259611, 12.138555.

    The men were buried in Silmersdorf, which is close to the proposed crash site and in keeping with common practice of burial near the crash site.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
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  12. Lucky Partners

    Lucky Partners Well-Known Member

    Good analysis Rolland. Sounds like it's back to the drawing board for further study. Guess I missed the variance in the spelling.

    EDIT:
    Just reviewed each page of the list once again and found nothing that I could recognize matching Suzanne's location. Most likely the best next step would be for her to review the list as she would have a much greater knowledge of the various cities, towns, and hamlets that appear on the list. List runs from page 58 to page 66 beginning here or more easily just review the pages posted by Terveurn above.

    https://www.fold3.com/image/251/38654145
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
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  13. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    Decided to take the opposite approach to this problem -- the Luftwaffe kills. Plotted the crash location on the LUMA (AF 76 / 15 Ost S) and checked with Gradnetz and no aircraft are listed as being shot down in this area on 24 May 1944. Did a search and did not find any references to any aircraft being show down in this area May or June 1944.

    24 May 1944 kills 2.JPG 24 May 1944 kills 3.JPG 24 May 1944 kills.JPG
     
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  14. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    Am I correct that the "Bukow" we are talking about, just above Teterow would be in square AE?

    We may need further clarification from Suzanne regarding date and location. Something does appear to be wrong in the info we are working with.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
  15. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Active Member

    You are right Gentlemen.
    I'll ask the owner of the diary if there is more information on the place.
     
  16. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Susanne,
    Which location is correct?
    Bukow B-17 crash.jpg
     
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  17. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member


    No -- as I said, I used your location of Bukow (above Teterow) with the LUMA and the location reported is AF 76 / 15 Ost S --


    Are you familiar with the the Gradnetzmeldeverfahren system ??

    quick and dirty divide each of the square (called Großtrapez) in the map into 8 squares and number them 1 thru 8 (ie AF-1 thru AF-8) -- this is called Mitteltrapez

    then divide each of those squares into 9 smaller boxes and number them 1 through 9 (with 5 in the middle) - this is called Kleintrapez

    So AF 76 would be lower left corner of Square AF (approx where Square AE / AF / BE / BF meet)


    http://www.stormbirds.com/eagles/research/gradnetz/gradnetz.html

    Gradnetz_1.jpg


     
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  18. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    I have a very sneaking suspicion that I am talking way above the basic research level conversation......

    There will be a quiz on this subject next week -- it counts as 50% of you class average..... :eek:

    Anybody that gets lost, just raise you hand and ask questions -- bring donuts........
     
  19. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Active Member

    I love donuts. For me the frosty-frozen topping one please :D

    The spelling of the place (two times) is Bukow. Unfortunately no more places mentioned on this page.
     
  20. Alex Smart

    Alex Smart Active Member

    Hello,
    The book "Losses of the 8th & 9th Air Forces" vol 3 would perhaps help ?
    From this you can ignore the following B17s lost on the 24
    42-107178 Sweden.
    42-97787 North Sea.
    42-102965 North Sea.
    42-31252 E. Channel.
    42-102494 N.Sea.
    Of theothers the Only one that gives a time that matches is 42-97845 1220 Spornitz, 4miles SW of Parchim.
    42-102635 was S/D at 1040 Itzstedt, 6 milesW of Bad Oldesloe in Holstein.
    42-31878 crashed at 1118 near Niendorf/Polchow.
    42-31306 crashed 1115 at Buckow( Ostprignitz)
    There are over 20 more to look into, they are all in vol 3.
    42-102648 S/D by ME109's a/c broke in half and crashed at about 1030 at Suelfeld near Kaltenkirchen/Holstein.
    42-31742 crashed at 1425 near the farm of Mr P. Roelfsema, Ekamp Wink No 47, in the community of Midwolda.
    Is this one of those time questions ? The hour difference/Local time/German time ???
    Because from what I see in the book, most if not all are lost earlier than the 1200 + time given in the KU page for the six a/c.

    Alex
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2017
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