War Crimes: The Gross Gerau Incident

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War, MIA, & Internees' started by BMBazooka, Aug 10, 2016.

  1. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Thank you, Susanne.

    To keep the other points of interest in view.
    Drießen.jpg
     
  2. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

  3. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

  4. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

  5. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Active Member

    I am gonna phone around in this week but have to leave for the Munich archives today.
    We had needed more time since I just had one hour or so. Its very, very far away from Munich.
    But i hope that Doug and Jaap will join me in spring, going to Margraten as well.
     
  6. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    Susanne I can find time in October to visit Driessen. Its 2 hours driving from Nijkerk.
    I can call Hubert Tolle for an appointment and make some photos.\
    After I can visit the Budberg Cemetery.
    With Memorial Day I will be at Margraten.
     
  7. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Active Member

    I deeply regret that I cannot join you in October. My budget for travelling is non-existent, especially after the trip to the US.
     
  8. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    No problem Susanne I can exist with my '' Polder-Dutch'' :p
     
  9. Traugott Vitz

    Traugott Vitz New Member

    I found Kuicksgrind - a street name at (Google Maps coordinates) 51.561961 / 6.623601.
     
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  10. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Also just to the west is Orsoy-Land road which dead end into Kuicksgrind road. Kuicksgrind road runs parallel to the Rhine for about 2.4 km / 1.5 miles in this area. Perhaps the farm or manor house was in this area.
    Orsoy-Land road & Kuicksgrind road.jpg
    Overview Orsoy-Land road & Kuicksgrind road.jpg
     
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  11. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    There is an NCAP photo from 1943 of the area. Unfortunately the intersection of the the roads is just to the right of the photo. This is the low-rez version of the photo.
    There does appear to be a building at this location 51.560286, 6.605420 . It appears in the 1943 photo also. It shows as a dark spot in a lighter field just to the right of the center of the photo. Today it appears there is a border of trees around the field. The other location where there appears to be buildings both today and in 1943 is 51.558158, 6.613107. The other area of interest is 51.564207, 6.608951. Today it appears to be a grove of trees, but in the 1943 photo it appears to be something else. The 1943 photo is too low-rez to really identify. Not sure yet if it is worth it to get the hi-rez version.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
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  12. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

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  13. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Rolland,
    Might you have a source which would offer a map of the 306th BG course on this mission to Gelsenkirchen, Germany 26 August 1944? It may have little bearing overall but I am wondering about the direction of flight of 42-97946 when the ship was hit rapidly with accurate flak resulting in the ship being lost very rapidly. S/Sgt Huebotter (WG) offers the best description of this in his statement attached. They had reached and passed the I.P. and were on the bomb run when hit. The target Gelsenkirchen is only 30 km / 19 miles to the east of the Budberg crash area. It does not appear they dropped their bomb load before crashing.

    The plane depending on course could have been traveling east to west, *hit* then passed over the target to the crash site, or west to east crashing at the site before reaching the target. I find it interesting that S/Sgt Huebotter was one of the last to leave the ship (as he left the plane seemed to have rolled over and began to disintegrate - other witness accounts) and Huebotter parachuted into the Rhine, saved by a Germany civilian. The river curves around in this area, hard to say where in the river he landed. Also unknown is the altitude of bailout and wind direction which would have effected his chute path.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
  14. Traugott Vitz

    Traugott Vitz New Member

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  15. Traugott Vitz

    Traugott Vitz New Member

    I think you misunderstood me. I was not shocked. I was surprised, and I think Airwar maybe misunderstood the "Ehrenmal". If he is referring to the name "Heinrich Flauaus" appearing on this Ehrenmal he maybe overlooked the fact that this man took part in the war 1848-49 and therefore cannot be identical with the perpetrator in the Groß-Gerau case. And Helmut Flauaus (+ 1943) cannot be the perpetrator either - wrong given name, wrong death year. Hence my question "Whom do you consider to be a war criminal?"
     
  16. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017 at 3:56 PM
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  17. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    Traugott your right. I delete my post. Iam still searching for more info on the Budberg crash and other crashes.
    Susanne is our Fliegermorde-expert. I leave it to her.
     
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  18. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

  19. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

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  20. Traugott Vitz

    Traugott Vitz New Member



    It is.


    That's me, too.

    I am researching flyer lynching cases with a view to writing a book, in German, on this subject. And my definition of "war criminal" does not differ from the Nuremberg Tribunal or current international law.
     

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