1. The AAF forum will close permanently on December 1, 2017. I no longer have the time to manage a project like this, obviously, or give it the attention that it deserves. I still think fondly of the early days in 1998 when this all got started. A small, but eager group of tech savvy 1st and 2nd generation descendants made great friends with the last of the WWII veterans thru the newfangled internet. They're all gone now. It's time for me to turn the page. Thanks for being along for part of the ride. I'm sorry it got so bumpy in the end.
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Visiting a crash site

Discussion in 'All Hands Club & Canteen Discussion Area' started by Mary Kircher Roddy, May 16, 2017.

  1. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    Isolated grave could be a single burying in a German Graveyard.
    Sometimes there were special graveyards where all the killed flyers were buried. In Munich its usually Fürstenfeldbruck or Hochmutting near Schleißheim. If there is a single grave the IDPF speaks of isolated grave.
    I have problems reading the MACR. Technical problems. I'll be back this evening.
    Have to leave now,
    If there is any hint where the isolated grave was?
     
  2. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    Sorry, forgot KU Report. KU report is the report of the German Luftgau-Kommando on downed allied ships. There are KSU and ME reports as well.
    They are in the NARA.
    I can check my notes if I have this KU report this evening.
     
  3. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    upload_2017-5-18_8-36-46.png upload_2017-5-18_8-36-46.png
     
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  4. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    In my response to RSwank at 928 pm I gave the coordinates and a link to mapquest showing where those coordinates are. It looks to me like a field, not a graveyard. If you can't find my earlier response let me know. Right now I'm responding from my phone and it's hard to include the links. I can do it from my laptop tomorrow.
     
  5. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    Ok, got it. The coordinates match with a field.
    I gave the next farmer a call but there was nobody at home. I left a message and will try it again.
     
  6. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Visual aid; 1st Lt Mark L Golden interment (#1) 52.276091217063,10.073529236228. There is a factor of error using these WWII bombing maps (if I recall correctly from other investigations) the actual grave might still have been in Ohlum. There is no Google street view in Ohlum so I cannot be sure, there appears to be a church as identified simply by the shadow of a possible steeple. This building is 396 yards / 362 meters from the "field" coordinates.

    The German Casualty Case No. KU-2247 appears to cover this incident. First usage in the MACR on Page 29. KU-2243 is also used starting on Page 31. Again the full report starts here on fold3 https://www.fold3.com/image/28637765

    1st Lt Mark L Golden initial interment.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  7. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    I am attaching the report of burial. It says "Previously buried in isolated grave" Would they use that terminology "isolated" if it were in a cemetery?
     

    Attached Files:

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  8. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    I could be totally off base here. But I often use MeyersGaz.org in my German research. I can find a historical map. Per that map from MeyersGaz, there are no churches in Ohlum. You can see dots with crosses identifying churches in Harber and Hohenhameln but none in Ohlum. Also, looking at the MeyersGaz ecclasiastical list, there aren't churches in Ohlum. The nearest ones are in Hohenhameln (<1 mile) and Harber (1 mile). Hohenhameln has both a Catholic and Protestant church and Harber has a Protestant church. I realize the MeyersGaz map is not from 1944, but neither is the current mapquest or Google earth view. But historically it seems there wasn't a church in Ohlum, so probably it didn't have a church graveyard.
     
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  9. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Yes I concur. Ohlum still today is a rather small village and my identification of a possible church was just a guess (as advertised). I had also checked for churches in Ohlum and found none. Maybe Dirk can help with this also, perhaps there is a village chapel with cemetery. Still hoping to avoid Lt Golden being buried in an open field.

    To the question of crew capture locations there appears to only be three recorded. In the MACR Page 31 Giannoni captured, no time given (looks like Garbsen BUT this is 11 miles west and a little north of the target, wrong city or inaccurate German report); Page 38 Kauffman (who was wounded) captured at Harber at 10:00 hrs., Walton-Black (last man out of the ship) captured at Lühnde at 09:30 hrs.

    Lühnde is 4.25 miles / 6.78 km west of Harber, see map. This may indicate the planes direction of travel but prevailing wind direction on chutes during descent should be considered. These locations are also not in line with Rolland’s post #15 estimated direction of travel of the plane being ESE. With Lt Walton-Black being captured west of Sgt Kauffman the plane might have been circling (as Rolland suggested on autopilot).

    I have added the Sgt Giannoni capture location to the map below but I think this bad data in some form, capture locations are obviously in purple.
    Mark Golden Crew 43-37714 POW captures.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  10. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    Ok, no hint. Let give it another try: Are there information on clothes other remains, casket etc.
    When they exhumed him the first time there is usually a form.
    Isolated grave: Yes, it can be a single american grave on a German Churchyard. I made the same experience with James M. Greene in Pullach.
     
  11. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    I will scan what look like relevant pages of the IDPF and post later. At work now. It will take a while to scan. There were dog tags with the body and on the body was his class ring from University of San Francisco and a bracelet with wings on it.
     
  12. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    upload_2017-5-18_20-26-20.png

    The Greene example.

    Scott, would you do me a favor and try to show the coordinates on a map?
     
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  13. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    This is some other person's burial, not Mark Golden's, correct?
     
  14. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    Scott, I agree the Giannnoni capture point is probably not correct (unless there is another village, local to the crash site with the same/similar name to the Garbsen located west of Hanover). Possibly the Germans mixed him up with someone else. He was one of the last ones to bail out of the rear door.

    Susanne, the map co-ordinates given for Green are located on the AMS (Army Map Service) Munchen map X6 (scale, 1:100,000) (M641 series). I can't seem to find the map on line, although someone will sell you a copy on ebay. ;-)

    https://picclick.co.uk/Large-Original-1943-US-Army-Map-of-401273733635.html
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  15. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

  16. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    Would this help? It is from the Modified British System http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-grids.php
     
  17. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    Last edited: May 18, 2017
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  18. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    Thats what I was trying to figure out: how correct are the coordinates? If it is a cemetary in Pullach, which is the right place, the coordinate data is correct.
    Can we say, the coordinates for Golden are correct too?
     
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  19. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    Actually, back to Mary's suggestion in post 56, once you can see that Map X-6 has right half of the Nord de Guerrre wY square and the left half of wZ (look on the right side of the X-6 map which shows the relationship) it would appear the coordinates are wY820447 which we can put in the translator and get 48.06585°, 11.52438°. That point is a little to the north east of the present cemetery. Looks like a bunch of sunbathers in a park today.

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/48°03'57.1"N+11°31'27.8"E/@48.0654413,11.521569,518m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d48.06585!4d11.52438



    As far as how accurate the co-ordinate translator is, you can do some tests if you can locate "exactly" things on the X-6 map vs where the co-ordinate translator puts them.
    I found an area the seems to be the same today as back in 1945. On the X-6 map, look at the intersection of 99 and 65 (990 and 650). It appears to be located in series of segmented water basins (docks?) along a canal. (Labeled Fischteiche)

    Note that the intersection of 99 and 65 is in the 2nd to last "basin" on the east end. When you put wY990650 in the translator, you end up in the last "basin" on the east, about 250 to 300 meters or so off from the X-6 location.

    A similar test can be made at the other end of these basins. The intersection of 95 and 64, on the X-6 map ends up in the bottom left corner of the 3rd "basin" from the left. (counting from where the road crosses the canal. wY950640 via the co-ordinate translator ends up the slightly left of the center of the 5th basin from the left. Again an error of 250 to 300 meters or so.

    Another example closer to Pullach. On the X-6 map, the intersection of 82 and 47 is very close to the train station, in particular it is within the triangle formed by Bahnhofstrasse, Munchener Strasse and the train tracks. The point of intersection is very close to the bottom left corner of that triangle. The co-ordinate translator puts wY820470 outside of that triangle to the north-east. An error of maybe 200 m or so.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  20. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Rolland,
    Going back to Mary's post #26 on page 2, would it also be correct to say there is a similar factor of error (100s of yards) using this system. "Using the coordinates translator at http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-translator.php and putting in the 595-112 onto the rX map, calculates to GPS coordinates of 52 degrees, 16' 34" N and Longitude 10 degrees, 04' 25" E Plotting on mapquest shows it here: https://www.mapquest.com/latlng/52.276091217063,10.073529236228 "?

    I think this topic came up with Tmac1397 http://forum.armyairforces.com/members/tmac1397.142/ during a targeting discussion but this might be an apples to oranges comparison on my part. I can't find it in his threads but it seems to me I plotted the coordinates of the French chateau and there was a similar yardage variant.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017

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