1. The AAF forum will close permanently on December 1, 2017. I no longer have the time to manage a project like this, obviously, or give it the attention that it deserves. I still think fondly of the early days in 1998 when this all got started. A small, but eager group of tech savvy 1st and 2nd generation descendants made great friends with the last of the WWII veterans thru the newfangled internet. They're all gone now. It's time for me to turn the page. Thanks for being along for part of the ride. I'm sorry it got so bumpy in the end.
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Visiting a crash site

Discussion in 'All Hands Club & Canteen Discussion Area' started by Mary Kircher Roddy, May 16, 2017.

  1. Lucky Partners

    Lucky Partners Well-Known Member

    Walton-Black's two page statement.

    MACR 5902 PG 20.jpg MACR 5902 PG 21.jpg
     
  2. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    Mark L.Golden
     

    Attached Files:

    25Kingman49 likes this.
  3. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

  4. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    A little more on the Mark Golden crew of 43-37714. I suspect Mary is way beyond all this in her research so this is more for the record here.

    1st Lt Mark L Golden, O-461089 (P) (California) F-A-G https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=56299140

    2nd Lt James A Walton-Black, O-807801 (CP) (Virginia) NARA, POW https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...6&tf=F&q=O&807801&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=21587
    Vale 1945
    James Alexander Walton-Black, Yale University,1945.jpg

    2nd Lt Alvin W Long, O-708508 (N) (Illinois) Original enlistment 3 Nov 42, ASN: 16136504, https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...&tf=F&q=16136504&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=209220 POW https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...6&tf=F&q=O&708508&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=88140 F-A-G https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=167242918

    1st Lt James A McColgan, O-406173 (B) (New York) POW https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...6&tf=F&q=O&406173&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=92169 F-A-G (likely) https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=3973278

    S/Sgt John J Kauffman, Jr., 15119279 (RO) (Ohio) Enlistment https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...&tf=F&q=15119279&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=146018 POW https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...6&tf=F&q=15119279&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=81311 F-A-G (likely) https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=86980826

    S/Sgt Homer S Howes, 17123744 (ETTG) (Nebraska) Enlistment https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...tf=F&q=17123744&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=1432277 POW https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...6&tf=F&q=17123744&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=77246 (No F-A-G memorial found) 8 Jun 1914 to 22 Sep 1969 place of death: Los Angeles, CA

    Sgt Frederick C Slater, 31341280 (BTG) (Connecticut) Enlistment https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...tf=F&q=31341280&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=2520848 POW https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...&tf=F&q=31341280&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=115071 (No F-A-G memorial Found) 2 Oct 1924 to; may still be alive.

    Sgt Raymond F Gaswint, 39856335 (TG) (California) Enlistment https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...tf=F&q=39856335&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=8161428 POW https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...6&tf=F&q=39856335&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=67485 F-A-G (likely) https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=61787332

    Sgt Rudolph G Giannoni, 39693564 (LWG) (California) Enlistment https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...tf=F&q=39693564&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=8062473 POW https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...6&tf=F&q=39693564&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=68104 F-A-G (long bio) https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=153273302

    Sgt Guido L Valentine, 12171249 (RWG) (New York) Enlistment https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...&tf=F&q=12171249&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=596625 POW https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...&tf=F&q=12171249&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=123192 (No F-A-G memorial) 15 Mar 1924 to 30 May 1997, place of death Miami, Florida.
     

    Attached Files:

    Airwar likes this.
  5. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    Wow. That is so cool!. I emailed Dirk last night and he wrote me an email back and he's looking into my questions and will contact town officials. I'm so excited with possibilities. He may or may not be able to find anyone who remembers the crash, but whatever I find will be great.
     
  6. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    One piece of the IDPF, "Report of Burial" on 11 May 1945 is for a burial in Margraten. The form indicates it is "Reburial" It says "Previously buried in isolated grave located at Coords:595-112" It also indicates that Identification Tags were buried with the body and attached to marker. I have calculated the GPS coordinates for the Coords: 595-112 location. The British National Archives has Military Maps of the Second World War. Given the location mission, the appropriate map set is Nord de Guerre Zone. Given the description of the mission target, it is box rX of that map. Using the coordinates translator at http://www.echodelta.net/mbs/eng-translator.php and putting in the 595-112 onto the rX map, calculates to GPS coordinates of 52 degrees, 16' 34" N and Longitude 10 degrees, 04' 25" E Plotting on mapquest shows it here: https://www.mapquest.com/latlng/52.276091217063,10.073529236228

    Because the IDPF indicates the original burial at 595-112 was identified by ID tags with the body and on the marker, did the German interrogators really "have" the ID tags or did they just know where they were and what they said? I don't think they told Long they had the tags, only the jacket. Maybe they had the jacket because it wasn't buried with the body. Maybe they found the jacket and didn't know what happened to Golden, and they didn't realize he had been buried, perhaps by German civilians?

    Is it possible to tell exactly where the crew members landed? I would think they would have tried to hide as soon as they landed, and maybe would not have been picked up exactly where they landed.
     
  7. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    When I deleted my post yesterday because that I had missed that the IDPF was already on the scene I deleted my question for the AV Number. If there is one in the MACR would you be so kind as to give it to me? I'll go through the files then.
    Rolland, an extremly thoroughly analysis of the Golden Case.
    I would like to add another comment: look at the name. Golden. This sounds jewish. Sometimes the killers looked for the jews, dog tags, or names. I have one case where there was one jewish soundig first name, one out of ten, and thats the one who was shot.
     
  8. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    Mary, since I am one of the specialists for aviator murder in this forum - would you like to share the IDPF or the relavant parts of it with me? So I could look for hints.
    its just an offer...
    I have a look into the MACR this evening.
     
    Airwar likes this.
  9. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    The co-pilot wrote a 3-page typed letter to William P Golden, Mark's father. He details exactly what happened on the mission, and explains why Golden exited the plane before Walton-Black. He said clearly that "I personally saw him leave the airplane, with his parachute properly adjusted, in full possession of all his wonted faculties... I was not, however, in a position to say definitely that Mark's parachute did open. It is my belief that it is most unlikely that he would have made any mistake whatsoever. (I cannont remember having seen him make one at any time), and also that his parachute most certainly should have opened. Therefore I believe [he underlines believe] that Mark made a successful jump and reached the ground safely. There is always a possibility that he may have been killed or injured by landong on some obstruction. I myself nearly landed in a canal, where I might have been drowned. I was able to slip my chute sideways, so that I landed on the embankment instead."

    If you think it would be worthwhile, I could post a transcription of the Walton-Black's letter to William Golden.
     
  10. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    what is an AV number? Where do I find that.

    Yes, Golden does sound Jewish. I don't know that it made any difference, but he was Irish Catholic from San Francisco. Mom from Ireland, Dad a couple of generations away from Ireland.
     
  11. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    In the MACR. Its A.V. and a case number (which should consist out of 4 numbers, and then the year.
     
  12. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    I think when I initially found reference to a MACR it was on another site. I might have been mistaken about the number of pages. When I look at the MACR I printed from Fold3 it is 50 pages. Some of them appear to be duplicates
     
  13. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    I don't see any AV number. I've looked through all the pages of the MACR.
     
  14. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    One of the crew was Kaufman which sounds more Jewish than Golden. Kaufman was Catholic too. He was the radio operator who was injured on the plane.
     
  15. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    For you as an american Kaufmann sounds more jewish. For a German, Kaufmann is a typical German name. These crazy Nazi bunch had a different view on names being feed through propaganda for mor than 10 years. Especially in these days when a real propaganda war was fought against the alliied airmen.
    I even have one case were the Germans tried to butcher a bombardier who in their eyes looked like a negro...He was maybe of Irish descent.
    There is a hint to the KU Report. Have you tried to get in the NARA?
     
    Airwar likes this.
  16. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    Is there any mentioning at which graveyard or area they did find Golden?
     
  17. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    Another question: Kauffman: Shot through pelvis. This indicates that it could be that the Germans shot on them after bailing out.
    There are two reasons for the end of the ship: Falk or Fighter. Which is correct?
     
  18. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    What is a KU report? Sorry maybe I should know but I don't.
     
  19. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    No Kaufman was hit while he was aloft in the radio room. Slater climbed out of the ball turret and saw Kaufa. Lying on the floor in a pool of blood with flames over his head. He dragged him out, got his chute on him and got him out of the plane.
     
  20. Mary Kircher Roddy

    Mary Kircher Roddy New Member

    I don't think it was a graveyard. IDPF said "isolated grave" which does not sound like a "graveyard".
     

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