1. The AAF forum will close permanently on December 1, 2017. I no longer have the time to manage a project like this, obviously, or give it the attention that it deserves. I still think fondly of the early days in 1998 when this all got started. A small, but eager group of tech savvy 1st and 2nd generation descendants made great friends with the last of the WWII veterans thru the newfangled internet. They're all gone now. It's time for me to turn the page. Thanks for being along for part of the ride. I'm sorry it got so bumpy in the end.
    Dismiss Notice

Searching for the needle in a haystack: Which crew?

Discussion in 'All Hands Club & Canteen Discussion Area' started by BMBazooka, Aug 12, 2017.

  1. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    I just had an interesting conversation on the phone, with a 90 year old witness of the murder of six american airmen near Gießen.

    He knows the names of the 3 person who comitted the crime, they were not caught or convicted by the Americans (have checked this with the Marburg Data Base). He was arrested 3 times because he was a leading member of the Hitler Youth, suspected having participated in that crime, and two of the murder were Hitler Youth Leaders of his district.

    The ship was shot down by a German fighter. Thats the only thing he knows about the air men. The bomber crashed in 1944, maybe in Fall, near Heuchelheim. He is absolutely sure with this place.

    We have some murdered air men for September and October 1944 in this area (midair collusion 92BG ships MACR 9344. INSOMNIA B-17/MACR 9346.

    Dachau Trials 12-1821, 12-2000, http://www.online.uni-marburg.de/icwc/dachau/000-012-1848.pdf http://www.online.uni-marburg.de/icwc/dachau/000-012-1871-001.pdf, http://www.online.uni-marburg.de/icwc/dachau/000-012-1871.pdf, and the Stroop Case.

    Two names of perpetrators are identical but the stories and places don't fit. I went through the MACRS and the Dachau files, there are more murdered airmen as was known in 1946.

    I got a hint of some murdered air men in fall 1944 about 10km of the Heuchelheim area apart that place, but no information more to get. There is another eyewitness I am trying to get but he is very sick.

    Any ideas?

    Basic infos: 8th Air Force, Area Gießen, second part of 1944 maybe spring 1945, 6 killed airmen by a hunting squad of the Gießen Hitler Youth Leaders and a dentist.

    Not December 1944, the big air raid on Gießen, my eye witness would have mentioned that.
    Thank you!!!
     
  2. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    I went the opposite direction -- put the coordinates for Heuchelheim into luma and got the Luftwaffe coordinates (OS 48 / 05 Ost S or 81448 / 05 Ost S)

    Looked-up in Luftwaffe kills for Fall 1944 and got several hits for OS gradnetz:



    11.09.44 Ltn. Rudolf Krau: 2 9./JG 53 B-24 HSS £ OS-12 at 300-100 m. [Lohra S. Marburg] 11.58 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -

    11.09.44 Uffz. Fieseler: 2 10./JG 53 B-24 £ OS-1: 8.000 m. [Lohra S. Marburg] 12.00 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -

    11.09.44 Uffz. Gerhard von Strassmann: o.Z. 11./JG 300 B-24 £ OS-PS at 6.000 m. [Giessen-Butzbach] 12.00 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: ASM

    39 12.00 Winnen 15 km. S.S.E. Marburg OS-2 Liberator 99% Bruch:

    40 12.10 Klein-Rechtenbach 7 km. S.E. Wetzlar OS-7 Mustang 99% Bruch:

    02.12.44 Gefr. Willi Orth: 1 4./JG 3 B-24 £ OS-4 at 5.800 m. [Bad Soden/Frankfurt] 13.05 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -


    The closest hit is on 11 September 1944, this B-24

    Of course, it could be a Flak kill then I would not have it.

    next step is to check Bishops loss's for this date and see what he has


    Dave
     
    BMBazooka likes this.
  3. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    BMBazooka likes this.
  4. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    Dave, reading through the MACR for 42-50358 there is mention of the possibly some of the crew (maybe 4) being shot by civilians.

    Crash location given as "Espe", (probably should be Espa) 6 km W of Butzbach, Wetzlar County.

    Bail out locations?? I'll read through the MACR in detail later.
    Mentioned is Krofdorf, Gross Linden ( s/b Grossen-Linden?)
    One man buried at Espa. (Crash site).

    There maybe two (or more) crews involved in this and the 6? men who were shot were possibly from different crews. The men who were captured (from at least two crews) were kept a Giessen the first night and were "comparing notes" and the discussion about civilians shooting airmen may have happened that night.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
    BMBazooka likes this.
  5. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    So the haystack is getting smaller......


    I would also say by the Luftwaffe kill(s) that is is Uffz. Gerhard von Strassmann claim...
     
  6. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    Gentlemen, Chapeau!
    Last MACR speaks of four downed ships for the 11th!
    The air field I was told of is mentionend.
    I go on reading....
     
  7. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    Here is the story of Dobsons Capture between Giessen and Marburg (the place is called Treis, near Winnen, I even know the railway station and the tabacco building he mentions).
    Dobson is the source of the killed airmen that day.
    https://books.google.de/books?id=101-AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=Sergeant+Dobson+392+Bomb+group&source=bl&ots=4qDkZRjtiT&sig=pwpqPSCmYVySHKpwv-3K_GaQjmw&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi277ySztPVAhWEbRQKHU3XAsEQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Sergeant Dobson 392 Bomb group&f=false
    https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=56359635
    Dodson ship and part of the crew: http://fliegerschicksale.de.tl/11-.--September-1944.htm
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  8. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    I think we got one of the right ships. Here is a German newspaper report on the downing of B-24H-25-CF 42-50358 - 392nd BG / 578th BS (12 miles S/SW of Gießen):
    http://www.crashplace.de/Zeitungsberichte/ESPA Lockhart Butzbacher Zeitung.pdf
    It also mentions the rumour of some killed US Air men that day.
    Some of the mentioned hat bulletts in their head and were buried in Espa although thy might have landed at another place.
    This Dachau-Ludwigsburg case belongs to the complex:
    http://www.online.uni-marburg.de/icwc/dachau/000-012-1821.pdf
    Now the same old story: One would need the IDPFs...
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  9. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    Susanne,
    It will take some work to sort through all this. It appears several planes may be involved, all with long MACRs to read through. One thing that struck me just reading through the MACR for 42-50358 was the German individual "death certificates" (they were not quite autopsy reports) that lists the men both being both shot and burned. These were odd statements, not common in MACRs. Almost like a "CYA" effort. Also clear is the confusion by the crew of who bailed out (or could have bailed out) and who was already badly wounded in the plane.
     
  10. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    Rolland, I had planned to go on with my "Junior" book today. But after the two telephone calls with a 90 year old man finishing the second phone call with - I guess - breaking out in tears I will go a little further. I know the places so well! How often did I rode with my horses along these places, either the airport in Gießen-Allendorf or the Winnen place. The second "coincident" is that the second witness is a well known politician. Still now. His brother was also Hitler Youth Leader in that staff so one has to be very careful in this research.
     
  11. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    Susanne an article about Dobson
     

    Attached Files:

    BMBazooka likes this.
  12. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    Airwar likes this.
  13. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    What a story! I wish I had known that before for the Dresden exhibition.
    And I am proud of my fellow contry woman!
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
    Airwar likes this.
  14. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    two more
     

    Attached Files:

    BMBazooka likes this.
  15. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    Alfred Oppenheim ( for Susanne )
     

    Attached Files:

    BMBazooka likes this.
  16. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    More Oppenheimer
     

    Attached Files:

    BMBazooka likes this.
  17. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

    Please, part 2 of the story :D
     
  18. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Well-Known Member

  19. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

  20. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

Share This Page