1. The AAF forum will close permanently on December 1, 2017. The forum archives, past and present, were successfully transferred to the Heritage League of the Second Air Division. Two conditions were agreed upon; 1) all user email addresses would be protected, and 2) all private messages would remain private. On Dec 1st, the AAF domain will convert to a simple landing page to stay out of spammer hands.
    Dismiss Notice

P-38 Lost 17 December 1944

Discussion in 'All Hands Club & Canteen Discussion Area' started by one1, Mar 7, 2017.

  1. one1

    one1 Member

    I have a friend in Belgium that is looking for information on a P-38 shoot down in the vicinity of "Mirfeld Zum Kupp 7, Ambleve while escorting a group of bombers. The P-38 went down on 17 December 1944,
    around 1500-1600 hours.
    Unfortunately this is all the info he can provide. He would like to have the standard information, aircraft number, pilots name unit etc. I know its a shot in the dark but if the info can be found it will be found by
    this group.
    Thanks for any help you can provide.
  2. Lucky Partners

    Lucky Partners Well-Known Member

    According to our friends at Accident-report.com there were 15 P-38s lost in the ETO on December 17, 1944. Here is their list:


    What this list does not tell us is any additional aircraft which may have crashed or landed in Allied held territory. Also the location stated in the chart is where the aircraft was last SEEN, which may have little connection to where it eventually crashed.

    What is the source of the information you gave us? Is this from a witness who saw this P-38 crash or land? How certain are they of the date, time, and type of aircraft? Anything you can add would make this search a little easier, hate to chase ghosts if you know what I mean.

    The key, well the first step, will be to identify which FG was in the area between 3 and 4 PM. I've checked the MACRs for the first 5 S/Ns on the list and find that the three from the 14th FG went down close to noon so that rules them out. The first two from the 474th went down between 2 and 3 PM so they could be iffy. But 44-24437 from the 474th went down at 15:30, right in your time frame. And 43-28413 of the 370th also went down at 15:30. I've not checked any of the others but clearly you've got 10 candidates. Going to be pretty tough to figure out which one is you solution.

    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
    Airwar likes this.
  3. Alex Smart

    Alex Smart Active Member

    I did look at the list kindly provide above, however if I recall correctly there was a loss that might be the one you seek on the 16th ???
  4. Lucky Partners

    Lucky Partners Well-Known Member

    According to the same source as above there are no MACRs for P-38s in the ETO on December 16, or December 18, 1944.
  5. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    If you used the newest edition of Loss's, the closest crash site would be 44-23180 that was shot down near Neureuth (Untitled 4).

    Since Belgium was essentially in Allied hands, you then have to look at the salvaged and it shows one aircraft crashing at Florennes Air Field and the other in Luxembourg

    Map is location of the P-38 crash's on 17 December 1944

    25Kingman49 likes this.
  6. Lucky Partners

    Lucky Partners Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
    25Kingman49 likes this.
  7. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    I am not telling......................... <vvbg>

    Actually Marilyn has a whole bunch available at East Anglia Books -- tell her I sent you



    Lucky Partners and 25Kingman49 like this.
  8. one1

    one1 Member

    A little info I missed in his email " When the plane fell, there was fire at the back of the plane and the German soldiers extinguished it. That must mean that this area of Belgium at that time was still controlled by the Germans. On the map that Terveurn posted there is a unmarked block with an red arrow pointing to a red mark. Just below this mark is the Town of AMBLEVE. My first post stated P-38 shoot down in the vicinity of "Mirfeld Zum Kupp 7, Ambleve. This is probably the aircraft in question. My friend is sending pictures of pieces of the P-38 that were "recovered after the war". I can post these if they would help.
  9. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    The red mark is the start point for the examination of the records -- the P-38 crash's all have been recorded as east and north east of Prum, Germany

    There was no records (that I could find) that show a P-38 crashing near this site -- The Luftwaffe records (KU report) all show these P-38 all crashing in Germany.

    That said, St Vith was an active target for 9th AF P-47's on this date
  10. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Dave, what map graphic are you using here post #5?

    44-23180 MACR 11013, 6 pages https://www.fold3.com/image/30640518 suggests a crash (southwest?) of Schleiden, Germany - what number would that be on your map? Tried to match your map area on GEarth.
    Overview 44-23180.jpg
  11. Lucky Partners

    Lucky Partners Well-Known Member

    Just to keep things lively, to back up Dave's comment about p-47s, there are MACRs for 23 P-47s lost that day. Even a casual observer should be able to distinguish a P-38 from a P-47 but I think we need more details about the background of the person asking the question. Did he / she witness the crash, do any photos of the wreckage exist, etc, etc. On what basis is this person calling this a P-38? Same question about the date and the time. Does some kind of written record exist that this person is relying on to base his question.

  12. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    Robert Everett

    Attached Files:

    25Kingman49 likes this.
  13. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    I use for my research Microsoft's Autoroute with is no longer available (except for 2nd party) -- much better then Google Earth.

    MY SCREW-UP -- UNTITLED 4 is 43-28413 (1Lt Erwin J Koss) who crashed near Frauenkron
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
    25Kingman49 likes this.
  14. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    I have two P-47 that I like for this challenge

    P-47D-15-RE 42-76357 2LT Robert M Pace) Crashed near Wischeid (about 7 miles East / South-east from Ambleve)

    P_47D-27-RE 42-27323 1Lt Edward T Mossman Jr) - flak dislodged his bomb shacked while he was making a run on a target near St Virth area -- pilot was seen heading east but was never seen again.
  15. Lucky Partners

    Lucky Partners Well-Known Member


    Wow! I thought I was the only person on the planet who used Autoroute. Thanks for the link to East Anglia, Email on the way to Marilyn.
    25Kingman49 likes this.
  16. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    Ah damn, I screwed-up --

    Untitled 4 is 43-28413 (1Lt Erwin J Koss) who crashed near Frauenkron

    Untitled 6 is P-38J-15-LO 44-23180 near Neuenstein (not Neureuth)
  17. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    How do you like it ?? Better then google earth right ??

    wish it was updated, but lucky to have it on disk.....
    25Kingman49 likes this.
  18. Alex Smart

    Alex Smart Active Member

    Thanks for correction ,Lt. Ellis(44-24623) had a crash landing at Florence, Belgium a/c was a rite-off. Also your ref to vol5, silly me I should have looked .
    2Lt. Robert E. Everett.
    T/O Florennes, Belgium on an armoured recce mission to Duaren, Germany.
    The Flight Leader Captain Petersen spotted a columns of motor transport in woods near Neureuth, about seven miles north north east of Prum.
    Lt Everett dove down but hit tree tops and crashed, time was 13.50 hrs. KIA.
    Note:- Buried at Neureuth and later reinterred in Luxembourg Cemetery, Plot GG-12-276,£ before reinterment in Omak Memorial Cemetery, Oman Washington.

    Ref Losses of the 8th and 9th Air Forces vol5. page494

    Ooops, have I just found a first error in vol 5 ?
    Other sources have 44-24633 as the a/c flown by Ellis ?
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
  19. Lucky Partners

    Lucky Partners Well-Known Member


    There is neither a MACR nor an Accident Report for 44-24623. There is an Accident Report for 44-24633 dated December 16, 1944 with Ellis as Pilot. A landing accident at A-78.

    Autoroute is great for historical use such as this but I no longer use it for route planning. I have the '07 version with a copyright date of '05, been a lot of changes since then. Had an earlier version too but don't remember what year that was. It was a good product, don't know why they dropped it, ditto for their Streets and Trips program.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
  20. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Dave, Thanks for the MS Autoroute info, sadly I was not aware of this software. I like the look and the graphics, too bad MS discontinued it in 2015; damn me late to the party again. MS did the same thing in 2013 with Picture Manager (easy simple image editing tool) maybe too simple for some but I liked it. We should probably be doing this off forum.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017

Share This Page