Made in USA, used by others

Discussion in 'All Hands Club & Canteen Discussion Area' started by Zoran Petek, Jan 16, 2016.

  1. Zoran Petek

    Zoran Petek New Member

    I'm trying to find individual aircraft histories, starting with A-20s and B-26 Marauders used by RAF and SAAF. I found that Devil's Playmate (could be seen at ) ended in the Adriatic with No. 14 Squadron, Royal Air Force.
    Also many A-20 Havoc/Bostons, such as:
    41-3243/J 114 Sqn, 326 Wing RAF. North Africa. Canrobert, Algeria 1943. Loaned to RAF. Accident 5.12.43.
    41-19246/Q 114 Sqn, 326 Wing. North Africa. Loaned to RAF. A-20C.
    41-19406/E North Africa. Probably 3 SAAF Wing.
    42-33202/D 18 Sqn, 326 Wing. North Africa. A-20C.
    42-33205/T 114 Sqn, 326 Wing. North Africa. A-20C.
    42-33206/U 18 Sqn, 326 Wing. North Africa.
    42-33223/H 18 Sqn, 326 Wing. North Africa.
    42-33227/M 18 Sqn, 326 Wing. North Africa. A-20C.
    42-33229/A/41 18 Sqn, 326 Wing. North Africa. A-20C, USAAF s/n, B/N 41 on tail, loaned to RAF.
    43-9646 18 Sqn, 232 Wing RAF. Italy 1944. One of the few solid-nosed A-20Gs loaned to RAF from 47th BG, USAAF. Shot down 13.7.44.
    Unknown yet:
    42-33208 (C/N 6670)
    42-33215 (C/N 6677)
    42-33216 (C/N 6678)
    42-33224 (C/N 6686)
    42-33232 (C/N 6694)
    42-33270 (C/N 6732)
    42-33280 (C/N 6742)
    42-33290 (C/N 6752)
    42-33293 (C/N 6755)
    42-33303 (C/N 6765)
    42-33313 (C/N 6775)
    Could anybody help?
     
  2. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

  3. Zoran Petek

    Zoran Petek New Member

    I am re-researching B-26 sites these days and I am very sorry to inform you that www.markstyling.com is no longer online. Most USAAF B-26s were listed there, and many were illustrated in Mark's splendid profiles. Also non-existent is lostaircraft.com. For good? I hope not.
    What comes to the web stays there forever, some said. Are you kidding me?
     
  4. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    What a shame about this. Hopefully maybe somebody just forgot to re-register the sites. Bits and pieces of Mark Styling's site are captured in the Internet Archives over the years and if you work at it you can find a few of the pictures. If you want to explore go to www.archive.org and in the wayback line at the top enter http://www.markstyling.com. A few images, from earlier years are there but most are missing. As an example of his work here is one I found, the nose of a B-26, You may need to copy/paste the address and remove the quotes to see it if just clicking on it does not work.
    "https://web.archive.org/web/20070304021804/http://www.markstyling.com/b26s/B-26.03.cu.jpg"
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
  5. Zoran Petek

    Zoran Petek New Member

    SAAF 030 Sqdn Marauder A rekonstrukcija 1945.jpg

    This is a possible look of one of 30 Squadron SAAF Marauders. Possibly January 1945 or later replacement, judging by blue-white-orange upper wing roundel and less than ten mission marks. Light tail tip (shown white, but it could also been yellow) is probably tactical marking. Serial unknown.

    SAAF 030 Sqdn oznake Marauder Z rekonstrukcija.jpg

    Another one Marauder in two-tone upper surface scheme. Reconstructed from a photo certainly taken after 28 January 1945. Serial unknown.

    Marauder 'B' seems to have the two color scheme too, and also a darker (red?) nose ring.
    Last but not least, thanks to RSwank for info.
     
  6. Lucky Partners

    Lucky Partners Well-Known Member

  7. Zoran Petek

    Zoran Petek New Member

    Thanks for a quick response. I am very glad to hear about markstyling.com.
    This is example of what I intend to do (dates are d.m.y):
    Douglas Bostons used by No.13 Squadron RAF, Desert Air Force
    D BZ653 13 Sqn, 232 Wing, Italy 1945. SOC 14.3.46.
    G BZ584 13 Sqn, 232 Wing, Italy 1945.
    J BZ548 13 Sqn, 232 Wing, Italy I.45, Greece 45. SOC 14.3.46.
    K BZ529 13 Sqn, 232 Wing, Italy I-III.1945. SOC 14.3.46.
    M BZ621 13 Sqn, 232 Wing. Italy I.1945. SOC 31.10.46.
    N BZ569 13 Sqn, 232 Wing, Italy 1945 (could be a typo for below).
    N BZ596 13 Sqn, 232 Wing. Italy. SOC 14.3.46.
    O BZ568 13 Sqn, 232 Wing, Italy 1945. Crash-landed Jesi, Italy, SOC 20.1.45.
    O BZ635 13 Sqn, 232 Wing, Italy 1945. SOC 26.9.46.
    P BZ631 13 Sqn, 232 Wing, Italy 1945. "Jacqueline Anne". SOC 30.9.46.
    S BZ495 13 Sqn, 232 Wing, Italy X.44-I.45. Missing on a mission to Vigodarzere 30.1.45.
    S BZ656 13 Sqn, 232 Wing, Italy 1945. Crashed on take-off, Forli 7.3.45. SOC. Pilot W/O James B. Annand.
    V BZ641 13 Sqn, 232 Wing, Italy I.1945. SOC 26.9.46.
    Z BZ611 13 Sqn, 232 Wing. Italy 1945. SOC 26.9.46.
    Now I'm looking for serial numbers of Boston Mk.Vs coded 'A' and 'C', both flown by Slovene Augustin GroĊĦelj (listed as Groselj in RAF) during April 1945. SOC-dates are from Baugher's list.
    You can see at http://www.maketarstvo.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=58
    that I started similar lists for SAAF Nos. 24 and 30 Squadrons (Marauders). Notes are in Croatian so it would take too long to translate it. I am aware that this is not the right place for a non-USAAF topic, so I'll post it somewhere else.
     
  8. Mutley

    Mutley Member

    For people researching the Martin B-26 Marauder I would advise you to take GREAT CARE when looking at some people's web pages. There is a great many errors out there, and some are just constantly getting recycled, even more so than some of your average plain old household garbage!!

    Several years ago I personally demanded that Mark Styling for example completely remove his B-26 listings as he hadn't even properly checked over his own work and entries, to find the clear and obvious errors!! Then you can get into correcting the rest of the twisted Name, codes and serial numbers!!
    Baugher's listings are obviously a compilation of multiple people's work, and as such also contain many error's, as well meaning people like to add their own 'Two pennies' worth, but often from little or no real or proper research!.
    An example of errors at Baugher's page can be proved to have come from Stan Bishop and John Hey's "Losses" book(s), which I am struggling to get Stan to not make or correct! Losses Volume 4, page 498, shows for the 1st August 1944, the loss of 43-34126, as being coded 'X2', but states that the squadron was 598th. In FACT it was coded U2*H. Other people have also linked the name "By Golly II" to this aircraft, but that is also incorrect. The loss Pilot was John Quinn West. Jr. and his first aircraft WAS called "By Golly". But this aircraft was almost certainly NOT his assigned aircraft and to my knowledge did not carry any name at the time of it's loss! I can say that, as I have details of ALMOST every man and aircraft on the missions flown by the 397th BG! JQW flew it's last 3 missions on the 26th and 30th July, and the 1st August loss. Prior to that it had been flown by William "Bill" Smith on it's first mission on the 19th July; William "Bill" Ryherd on it's second, 23rd July; and then again by Smith on the 24th(3rd) and 25th July(4th). This makes it's loss it's 7th mission.
    Bill Smith's first aircraft was 42-96139, U2*D, "Susan J", which was named after his wife!
    John West's first aircraft was 42-96138, U2*C, "By Golly" named as it was the strongest "Blasphemy" word that he used as a devout Southern Baptist. This aircraft was crashed at A7-Azeville on the 16th July 1944, although this is also listed as A-6 Beuzeville in and with the 'typo' (Twice!) of the 391st BG, but the correct squadron of 598th, in "Losses" page 460!!
    Bill Ryherd's first aircraft was 42-96157, U2*H, "Sharon Rozanne II", which was named after his daughter, the original Sharon Rozanne!!
    The 'Artwork' carried by each of these aircraft was really just the name, but with a slightly different letter style for each! "By Golly" also carried "Rube and Johnny" under the cockpit, as further tribute to JQW's wife and son, and was a little more 'Artistic' in nature!
    Bill Smith's second aircraft can be confirmed as 43-34127, U2*D, as he confirms flying 'His' new B-26G in his diary entry of the 2nd August 1944, which is also confirmed by his use of it, in the records!. It is still unknown if it was ever named "Susan J" or if it also may have carried "II" or "2nd" with any possible name!?
    John Bergman first flew 43-34123, U2*C, on the 19th July and for it's next two missions, 23rd and 24th July; with JQW taking off on it's 4th, on the 25th, but returning early, due to becoming lost in clouds!; Bergman then flies twice on the 30th and again on the 31st July and then again on the 2nd August, the day after JQW and 43-34126's loss! So it seems likely that JQW may not have yet had a specifically assigned aircraft, despite 43-34123 being coded U2*C, just as the original 'By Golly' had been coded!!
    This therefore suggests, but does not confirm, that the aircraft could have been assigned to Bill Ryherd, but Bill Ryherd was shot down on the 4th August(last (5th)mission!), whilst flying in 43-34116, U2*U. This aircraft was first flown by Randall Taylor on the 23rd July, then 2nd(3rd!) and 3rd(4th) August; with Edward Richardson flying it's 2nd mission on the 30th July! "Losses" incorrectly shows this as 43-34118, X2*Z, but with the correct squadron, 598th BS!! 43-34118 was in fact U2*N and primarily used from the 16th July, by Harry Patterson. A twist here however that the original U2*N, was 42-96162, "Dottie Dee" which was named, and primarily used by, Howard Quiggle, after his wife! The 397th BG and specifically 598th BS were issued the first B-26G-1 model aircraft as some of these had been fitted with the AZON Radio Guidance equipment for a special mission that they were about to undertake, which was the 4th August mission that Ryherd was shot down on!! But that's another story!!
    So, Baugher, eat your heart out, HEAVY research not only finds the truth, but where errors come from!!

    Also RAF / SAAF use of B-26's is difficult, as some people quote the US and RAF codes as being assigned in an ordered manner, which evidence seems to show, is not so!! So US code 43-34XX1-X10 does not correspond to RAF (Letter/Letter)XX1-X10; or wherever the code numbers start / finish between the allocation blocks. There is evidence, when found, of "erratic's" also, as aircraft lost before 'official' delivery are replaced with others(s) outside of the 'Block Run'. I have seen this over 10 years ago!, but have not studied or compiled anything personally, so it is great that someone is seemingly doing this!! I hope you have the SAAF History book, as this helps a little, and I have no doubt that researching at the British Public Records Office in Kew, London, would also help!! I wish I could find someone who has, or would do the Free French aircraft! I have some lists of those transferred after the war, from the Cumulative Loss Listings records, but these don't cover wartime use and assignments. Yet again, another story!!

    Sorry anyway to Mark and Joe, I do not wish to demean your work, and just wish I had time to correct ANYBODY's provable errors. But that can only be done with HARD evidence, which is often only from GOOD pictures; and / or other suitable evidence that can be relied upon! Most of that comes from meticulous compilation, comparison, and lots of just plain HARD WORK!! Oh! and a good measure of errors; but with other good, and hopefully kind!?, people pointing out errors in a considerate and friendly way

    Back to it I guess!

    Mutley
     
  9. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    Mutley

    You will find errors in almost every book published -- and it sucks to be an author and you find errors in a book you just sent to the publishers.

    As a historian, my favorite saying is a book is obsolete one it is published -- there is always somebody willing (and able) to prove your hard work is in error.

    I look back at every book published between 1960 (or before) and find they are badly inaccurate (even some of the WWII bibles & standards heavily depended on today), but they are a foundation for much work still being published currently.

    One of the reasons I started my B-17 series -- shine light on a lot of the information on these aircraft, fix as many errors that have cropped-up on these ships and to get the sisters back-together and generate the history (as humanly possibly using today's current data).

    Would love to see your B-26 book.


    Cheers

    Dave
     
  10. Alex Smart

    Alex Smart Active Member

    Hello,
    Two books that I have used over time are
    "85 Years of the SAAF" by Winston Brent. It gives serial number, and fate of all known a/c you search and as far as crews if a/c was lost or wrecked.
    SAAF "Boston" a/c were MkIII, all had RAF serial numbers. Used only by 12 and 24 Squadrons SAAF.
    SAAF Marauder II and Marauder III except one MkII 118191 the rest had serials per RAF and from what is in the book none ever were given SAAF serial numbers.
    The other is the Air Britain "The British Air Commission and Lend-Lease" by K.J.Meekcoms. This gives Where applicable US serials matched to RAF serials.
    In relation to the A20, the RAF starts with the"Boston I ", DB-7(AE457-AE459) progresses through "Boston II, DB-7, "Boston III, DB-7A, "Boston III, DB-7B,to the "Boston IIIA (A-20C), "Boston IV" (A-20J), "Boston V (A-20K).
    Also the "Havoc II (DB-7A).
    The "Marauder I (B-26A), followed by the "Marauder II(B-26C), "Marauder III(B-26F), "Marauder III ( B-26G).
    Then there were also those a/c that were not under the Lend-Lease that were RAF and SAAF the RAF serials should give them up easily.
    Check the Air Britain RAF Serial Number series for this.
    Alex
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  11. Mutley

    Mutley Member

    Thanks Alex.
    I have now put the Air Britain book on order, as I know that most of their work is at least, GOOD to EXCELLENT, and usually reliable! One day I will get the Serial(s) reference books, but that is to much specific expense currently!
    I think I already have the SAAF book, buried somewhere in my "Boxes", since I emigrated to the USA from England in 2008!

    Mutley
     
  12. Zoran Petek

    Zoran Petek New Member

    Hello!
    Mutley is right, as serials run as follows:
    FB418/L 12 Sqn SAAF. (USSAF 41-35323, RAF VII.43) destroyed 7.4.44. Listed in 12 Sqn's Diary as FB481.
    FB419 RAF. (USAAF 41-35325)
    FB420 12 Sqn SAAF. (41-35327) SOC 26.4.1945
    FB421 RAF. (USAAF 41-35326)
    FB422/L 24 Sqn SAAF. (USAAF 41-35314, RAF VII.43) North Africa 44. Lost 17.4.44.
    FB423 RAF. (USAAF 41-35329, RAF VII.43) SOC 26.4.45.
    FB424 70 OTU (USAAF 41-35324, RAF VII.43) Crashed on landing, LG 214, 14.10.44.
    FB425/Z 12 SAAF Sqn. Three crewmen bailed 14.7.44. SOC 14.3.45.
    FB426 RAF. (USAAF 41-35336) VII.43. Landed approx 15 km from Fayid, Egypt, 3.12.43. Never repaired.
    FB427 RAF. (USAAF 41-35330) SOC 31.5.45.
    And so on...
     

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