Frames - Windows ?

Discussion in 'All Hands Club & Canteen Discussion Area' started by Dnalor, Jul 7, 2017.

  1. Dnalor

    Dnalor Member

    Hello all Experts,

    since long we tried to identify a find close to the crashite of a p-38.
    Interestingly it was never removed or taken away for recycling since 1944.

    First we thought these would be windows from a p-38 cockpit but the measurments do not match the measurements of the real, original p-38 cockpit windows.

    Now, what are (were) these frames, made of iron, still with a light green touch on surface.

    We are anxious, if you can help.

    ATB THX
    dnalor
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    Do you know the crashsite ?
     
  3. terveurn

    terveurn Active Member

    My first impressions are Bf110

    Bf110.JPG
     
  4. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    dnalor,

    What is the exact distance between the rivets, in particular the line of 10 or so that seem be equally spaced?
    If the center to center distance is always an exact identical metric measurement and not an exact "inch or fractional inch" distance, then maybe this is from a German plane, as suggested.
     
  5. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

  6. Dnalor

    Dnalor Member

    Scott and Airwar,
    there is a real connection between these items.
    On 20th Oct. 1944 three Lightnings crashed north of Bolzano ( middle of Sarntal). 9314, 9313, 9312. DPAA is going to search for Lt. Twedt, still MIA. Close to his crashsite there are the frames, the MGs are now in peaceful civil use farther away.

    Note, that the outer circumference of the frame is showing rests of rubber.
    Thx for discussion
    Best
    dnalor
     

    Attached Files:

  7. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    A little more regarding this loss; http://usafunithistory.com/PDF/50-74/71 FIGHTER SQ.pdf
    "20 Oct 1944 During a escort mission of B-17s attacking oil targets near Ragensburg, Germany, the Group encountered heavy and accurate Flak near Bolzano, Italy. Two aircraft from the 71st piloted by Lts Virgil Olsen (Edit: POW) and Lowell Twedt (KIA) collided, and debris hit Lt William Wisner (MIA/Recovered-2000), and all three went down without any visible signs of pilots bailing out. Two other 71st aircraft were hit by Flak. Capt Elliot, in one of the aircraft hit by ground fire, crash landed at Duress, Italy uninjured."

    2nd Lt Lowell S Twedt, 43-28799, MACR 9313 https://www.fold3.com/image/28668241 findagrave https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=56367115

    1st Lt Virgil O Olson, 43-28777, MACR 9314 https://www.fold3.com/image/28668289 (no findagrave page found)

    2nd Lt William O Wisner, 43-28379, MACR 9312 https://www.fold3.com/image/28668199 findagrave https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=32959185 & https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=56367458

    Sarntal, Italy.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  8. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
    25Kingman49 likes this.
  9. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

  10. Dnalor

    Dnalor Member

    Kingman, RSwank, terveurn, Airwar,

    many thx for your contributions!
    In 71st squ there is Capt. Elliot (First Name ??) mentioned as crash landed in Duress, on 20th Oct 44 too ?
    Is there a MACR for Elliot, where is Duress. ? We have Durres in Sarntal.
    Regards
    dnalor
     
  11. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  12. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Captain / Major Joseph R Elliott also served as an Operations Officer with the 1st Fighter Group. His signature found at the bottom of many MACR documents. Not finding "Duress" Italy on any maps either, probably a bad misspelling.

    Major Elliot's last mission MACR 13800, aboard P-38L, 44-25734 https://www.fold3.com/image/29428817
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  13. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    A little more about Lt Lowell S Twedt should he be recovered.

    Original enlistment 2 May 1942 at San Diego, CA. ASN: 19103197, NARA record https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=297449&rlst=297449,297451

    Lowell S Twedt was born 17 September 1917, in Iowa to Gertie Gertrude S “Sawyer”Twedt, age 30, and Racine M Twedt, age 31. In 1925 the family resided in Le Grand, Iowa. By 1930 the family had relocated to San Diego, California. In the 1940 Census Lowell S Twedt age 23 is still living in San Diego, California, married Ruth “Bagby” Twedt age 20 at Yuma, Arizona 17 Apr 1937 and together had a 1 year old son William Lowell Twedt, born 27 Dec 1938. Lt Twedt was 27 years old at the time of his death 20 October 1944 near Bolzano, Italy.

    Sadly as yet, no AAF photo found. HS images attached.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  14. Dnalor

    Dnalor Member

    Thx for comments Scott.
    The question remains if Capt. Joseph Elliot crash landed somewhere (Duress)before he was sadly KIA. I will ask for him in Durres in Italy.
    We have a foto of Lowell Twedt. Have to ask for permission of publishing.
    tnt
    dnalor
     
  15. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Thanks, dnalor.
    Not finding a "Durres", Italy either. searches here seem to lead to Durrës, Albania. So the question remains about this 20 October 1944 event, no MACR yet found. I guess anything is possible but to fly across the Adriatic to Albania for a crash landing seems unlikely.

    Edit: No likely Italian town names starting with "D" found here http://www.mangeruca.com/Towns D.htm or here http://rometour.org/cities-italy-started-ddaiano-dusino-smichele.html

    Hope you gain permission to publish Lt Lowell Twedt images. Have been looking in aviation cadet class books still with no luck. I will stop looking as you already have a foto.
    Scott
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
  16. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    Dnalor were there in your vicinity also crashes of aircrafts of the Italian Airforce like the Macchi C.202 ??

    Jaap
     
  17. Dnalor

    Dnalor Member

    Well-Known Members,
    yes i was in Durres Albania too, but ruled it out......
    Maybe there is a village in Italy named Duress.... I will look for this possibility. How did he escape the Germans then? LOL
    At last our newspsper request was published in Sarnthein-Sarentino and we are waiting for information by witnesses.
    We emphasized US-crashes with 20th Oct 44 first. But we will take German and Italian planes for our archive as well,
    if we gain information about.
    Jim Graham sent me 2 Twedt Fotos, which he was given by a Twedt´s relative. I´ll receive his answer tonight from Seattle.
    I regret, that we did not approach to the identification of the iron frames yet.
    AFN
    dnalor
     
  18. Dnalor

    Dnalor Member

    By courtesy of Jim Graham, Seattle. 1st Fighter Gr. Pilot

    Portrait of Lt. Lowell Twedt, MIA - KIA in Sarntal, Sudtirol. on 20th Oct. 1944. 1st FG, 71st squad.

    "All gave some, some gave all"

    dnalor
     

    Attached Files:

    25Kingman49 likes this.
  19. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    dnalor,

    A few questions on the window? frames. You say they are iron, I assume you mean steel. They have rusted. You say you measured the windows on a P-38 and these frames don't quite match. I assume you are talking about the two hand-cranked windows that roll up and down, one one each side of the cockpit. What are the dimensions of the actual P-38 windows? It looks to me they might by around 26 to 27 inches wide. Normally those windows have an "X" brace in the center and they also appear in photos to have a slight curve (i.e. are not flat). Almost any photo of a P-38 will show the "X" in the windows if the windows are up. There is apparently no evidence of such an "X" brace on the frames you found, is that correct? I would assume there were also some kind of pulleys, wires or toothed retraction mechanism or "something" on the actually P-38 windows to allow them to crank up and down when the pilot turned the crank inside the cockpit. On a couple of the 2nd set of photos you posted, there does seem to be a piece of wire attached to one of the frames and there does seem to be some sort of small pulley in one of the corners. Am I just seeing things in your pictures or are those bits actually there?
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
  20. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
    RSwank likes this.

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