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C-47 identification; Fustian operation; 13/07/43

Discussion in '60th TCG' started by nico720829, Jul 9, 2016.

  1. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

  2. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    Jaap, nice find. So it looks like Lee D Carr's plane, 42-23481 which was on Nico's list, went down some 2 miles off-shore, maybe "near" and north or NE of Augusta. Carr also gave a witness statement for the loss of 42-68714.
    Maybe Nico has found Carr's plane????

    This link has a map of the Drop Zones, so you can follow Carr's narrative a little better.
    http://www.pegasusarchive.org/sicily/depth_fustian.htm

    Looking at Google maps, it appears the river courses have changed over the years, but this may be the "area" where the bridge objective was located. (copy paste into Google Maps).

    37.399723, 15.065041

    I think this man, John Harvey Wallace, was his crew chief who was pushed out over the drop zone. He was captured in Sicily and spent 21 months as a POW.
    http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=15203033
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
    Airwar likes this.
  3. nico720829

    nico720829 New Member

    Hi RSwank,

    normally the access to WWII wreck is restricted, especially if casualties and/or munitions are involved. Nobody could recovered anything without permission of Sovritendenza.
    Actually, we didn't touch or got back nothing.

    Nicola
     
  4. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    Attached Files:

  5. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
  6. nico720829

    nico720829 New Member

    Hi RSwank,
    Hi Jaap

    here is again the list that I compiled, about the C-47 aircraft crashed, missing or shot down during the Fustian operation.
    • 41-18698
    • 42-23340
    • 41-18418 (MACR 416)
    • 41-19483 (MACR 1238)
    • 41-38591
    • 41-38594
    • 41-23410
    • 42-23481
    • 42-23522 (MACR 1237)
    • 42-32910 (MACR 415).
    I've got the MACR 415, 416, 1237, 1238 and I've just purchased two weeks ago the book of D. Isby. With these documents, at the present the following data can be resumed.

    s/n 41-18418, MACR 416

    • Model: Douglas C-47-DL,
    • C/n MSN: 4480,
    • Crew: 4 (Slotoroff, Sidney (Pilot), Saunders , Clyde W (copilot), Rhoads, Herbert A (Rad. Op.); Sarasky, Joseph A (Aer. Eng.)),
    • Passengers: 16,
    • Fatalities: 4 (Slotoroff KIA, Saunders KIA, Rhoads KIA, Sarasky KIA)
    • Group: 60th TCG, Sqd: 12th TCS,
    • Location: south of Catania at the river Simeto mouth,
    • Note: paratroops were dropped on the drop zone.
    s/n 42-32910, MACR 415
    • Model: Douglas C-47-DL,
    • C/n MSN: 9136,
    • Occupants: 4 (Curtis, Gordon Jr (Pilot), Carter, Douglas (copilot), Yenne, James W (Rad. Op.), Rinaldi, Angelo E (Aer. Eng.))
    • Passengers: 17,
    • Fatalities: 5 (Curtis KIA, Carter KIA, Yenne KIA, Rinaldi KIA, British soldier (name unavailable) KIA)
    • Group: 60th TGC, Sqd: 12th TCS,
    • Location: 6 miles southeast of Catania,
    • Note: paratroops were dropped on the drop zone.
    s/n 42-23522, MACR 1237
    • Model: Douglas C-47A-20-DL,
    • C/n MSN: 9384,
    • Crew: 4 (Powers, Charles L (Pilot), Courrege, Carroll J (copilot), Guthrie, Don R (Rad. Op.), Rees, Bernel H (Aer. Eng.)),
    • Passengers: unknown,
    • Fatalities: 0,
    • Group: 60th TGC, Sqd: 12th TCS,
    • Ship Number: 62,
    • Engine s/n: L-42-108822, R-42-108842,
    • Location: 10 miles south of Catania,
    • Note: crew members were captured and imprisoned in the Stalag camp.
    s/n 41-19483, MACR 1238
    • Model: Douglas C-47-DL,
    • C/n MSN: 6126,
    • Crew: 4 (Murchison, James G Jr (Pilot), Cristina, Robert J (copilot), Shuck, William B (Rad. Op.), Wellingham, Robert W (Aer. Eng.)),
    • Passengers: unknown,
    • Fatalities: 2 (Murchison KIA, Shuck DED),
    • Group: 60th TGC, Sqd: 28th TCS,
    • Engine s/n: L-42-72733,R-42-72719,
    • Location: 12 miles southwest of Catania,
    • Note: crew members were captured and imprisoned in the Stalag camp.
    s/n 42-23481
    • Model: Douglas C-47A-20-DL,
    • C/n MSN: 9343,
    • Crew: 4 (Carr, Lee D (pilot), Wilfred Buersmayer (copilot), Schwartz, Victor A (Rad. op.), Wallace, John H (Aer. Eng.)),
    • Passengers: unknown,
    • Location: shot down and crashed in sea probably north of Augusta.
    Attached find a screenshot from google maps with the approximative wreck site (arrow) and the distance wrt the Simeto mouth.
    It can be seen that all the previous s/n are probably not compatible with the wreck position.

    MACR 1236 reports the aircraft 42-68714 (referred by Carr) as a C-53D, not a C-47.

    Nicola
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
  7. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

  8. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
  9. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    Ops. Ladbroke. No more MACR's found as you mentioned above. They are listed at Joe Baughers list,but thats all for now.
    I think we have to look in the War Diaries of the 51st & 52nd Transport Command Wings.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    Troop Carrier Command Squadrons who were involved in this operation.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    Hmmm... found this more detailed description of Ladbroke.

    http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documen...r_N_Med_Ops_in_WW_II_Italy_Balkans_Greece.pdf

    Ladbroke was a glider assault so all the C-47s/Dakotas would have been tow/tug planes. Key sentence on page 28.

    "Since all of the tugs succeeded in returning to their departure airfields, with only a few having sustained superficial damage........."

    Since the wreck has the British sten guns onboard, it would seem unlikly this plane was part of the American "Husky" airdrops to the west, so we may be back to a Fustian loss.
     
  12. nico720829

    nico720829 New Member

    DATA FROM PEGASUS ARCHIVE
    On the website http://www.pegasusarchive.org/sicily there are several sections which list the aircraft used on Fustian, sadly by their chalk numbers rather than the actual aircraft number. The following are the information about the ten C-47s shot down in that operation (the same that I've listed by their s/n).

    a/c n. 54: Dropped at 22:25 hrs 2 miles S.E. of DZ4. Five men did not jump and A/C shot down in sea - four men saved. No containers found.

    a/c n. 77: Dropped at 23:15 hrs 1 mile South of DZ3 from 150 ft. A/C crashed in flames. 10 out of 16 believed to have jumped. All containers found.

    a/c n. 55: Dropped at 20:35 hrs ¼ miles W of DZ4. No containers found and believed NOT released. A/C shot down. Later reported burnt out.

    a/c n. 59: Dropped at 22:45 hrs 1 mile W of DZ4. One injured ankle (200 ft drop). One out of three containers found. A/C subsequently missing.

    a/c n. 80: Dropped at 23:00 hrs 2 miles N of DZ4. One trolley, two baskets NOT found. One broken leg on landing. A/C reported down at sea on return.

    a/c n. 104: Missing. Down in sea. All O.K. Six parachute troops injured.

    a/c n. 91: Down in sea - personnel picked up by British merchant vessel. 4 troops missing.

    a/c n. 83: Missing. Container blew up over DZ. A/C on fire - pilot ordered 'ABANDON A/C'. When he thought all out he went aft, found four lying believed dead, two seriously injured. Pilot threw these out of door and then jumped.

    a/c n. 86: Dropped at 23:40 hrs 7 miles WEST of DZ4. One man did NOT jump due to injured ankle. One container NOT found and believed shot off over sea. A/C missing.

    a/c n. 41: Dropped 2 miles N.W. of DZ1 (equals DZ4) at 915704 at 22:20 hrs (50 minutes early). No containers found (three Mk I, one trolley). A/C shot down on return - crew rescued.
     
    Airwar likes this.
  13. nico720829

    nico720829 New Member

    a/c 77 and 55 seem crashed on land and could be discarded...

    a/c 91 trasported the 16 FD AMB and crashed 17 miles east from Siracuse, far from the wreck point.
    REPORT FROM CAPTAIN A. PERCIVAL O/C No 4 SECTION 16TH PARA FD AMB ON OPERATION “FUSTIAN” “No 4 section and myself left landing strip ”B” on 13th July 1943 at 1950 hrs. The section consisted of one officer, one staff Sergeant, one Corporal, one lancecorporal and twelve privates, one driver. The flight was uneventful and we got our twenty minute warning at 2234 hrs, and as we were hooking up we were fired on by a convoy. The second burst of anti-aircraft fire hit us and put the controls out of action. The pilot made a forced landing in the sea at 2245 hours. We were then about seventeen miles east of Syracuse. As the aircraft was landing we took off our parachutes and got dinghies for use. We then sat down and prepared for the shock of landing. The pilot made a perfect landing and no one was injured. I detailed two men to get out through the escape hatches, they got out onto the wings and we passed them each a dinghy. I then detailed another six men to get out, three to each escape hatch. By this time the aeroplane was filling rapidly with water and the escape hatches were under water. I then told the rest of the men to file out the jumping door. They did so in an orderly fashion until the plane was eventually totally submerged. I think that at this time there was Staff Sergeant Anderson, Corporal Amos, Private White and myself left in the plane. Staff Sergeant Anderson and myself, managed to swim out of the aircraft which was down 30 feet below water at this time. Apparently Corporal Amos and Private White failed to get out. We all gathered around the dinghies for about 20 to 30 minutes until we were picked up by a Greek destroyer.

    One of the chalk no. 54, 59, 80, 104, 83, 86, and 41 should be the wreck we've discovered.

    Nicola
     
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  14. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

    Nicola,

    Stefano Sernagiotto was at the old forum the Sardinia expert. Probably he has also information about Sicily.
    stefano.sernagiotto@gmail.com

    Jaap
     

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