27. November 1944, 1st. Lt. James F. Cross, 353FG/352 FS

Discussion in '353rd FG' started by Hartmann Dirk, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. Hartmann Dirk

    Hartmann Dirk New Member

    Hello,

    looking for all Information about the Loss of 1st. Lt. James F. Cross, 353FG / 352 FS on 27. November 1944 near Altenau-Harz (Lower Saxony).

    Every help in this case is welcome....

    Greetings streak98 (Dirk)
     
    Airwar likes this.
  2. RSwank

    RSwank Well-Known Member

    Do you have the 12 page MACR #10471 for this loss? Mustang was 44-15388. According to radio traffic he was trying to bail out. The German documents in the MACR say the plane came down vertically and seem to suggest he was still in? or near? the plane.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
  3. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Joe Baugher http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1944_1.html P-51D-15-NA-44-15388: (352nd FS, 353rd FG) crashed from unknown cause at Altenau, Germany Nov 27, 1944. MACR 10471. Pilot killed.
    12 page MACR 10471 starts here on fold3 https://www.fold3.com/image/29249838 3 pages attached.

    NARA enlistment record https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record...&tf=F&q=14166921&bc=sl&rpp=10&pg=1&rid=132217
    Height: 66
    Weight: 140

    Findagrave page here https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=102406443

    MACR_10471_Page_3_Lt_Cross.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
  4. Lucky Partners

    Lucky Partners Well-Known Member

  5. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
  6. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Active Member

    Killed in Germany...
    Dirk, do you have the IDPF?
     
  7. Hartmann Dirk

    Hartmann Dirk New Member

    Hi ,....
    First of all Thanks for all the Information about 1st. Lt. James FD Cross.
    Due to the last Eyewitness of the crash in Altenau, it was a cloudy Day and he heard a "Air Fight" with shooting above.. he could see nothing ,.. but after a short time a single Plane was coming straight out of the clouds and crashed r. a. 800 Metres east of Altenau on the Street to Torfhaus. After reaching the place, the Fighter was completely destroyed and no many Parts were found on the Ground.... The Pilot were found later in the Area not far away, but not in Crater of the impact....so far the Report of the Eyewitness.

    BMBazooka, I`ve not the IDPF in that case of Lt. J. F. Cross.....

    Thank you all again for your help !!!

    Greetings Dirk
     
  8. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Active Member

    I would go for the IDPF.
    If you get it with a hole in the head, you know what "found dead" means.
    If he is smashed a natural cause is realistic (maybe the chute did not open, he was wounded and bleeded to death and so on).
    His name starts with a "C", so there is a chance you get it while you are still living....
     
  9. Hartmann Dirk

    Hartmann Dirk New Member

    BMBazooka,

    Thank you again for your help....yes of course, the IDPF would be very interesting in that case, but from time to time,... if you order it....nothing happened after more than two or three years....

    Dirk
     
  10. BMBazooka

    BMBazooka Active Member

    I know this problem very well.
    But the Letters A-K or L have been digitalized.
     
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  11. Lucky Partners

    Lucky Partners Well-Known Member

    Susanne,

    Was unaware that they are finally creating digital files for the IDPFs. Have you received a digital file yet? If so, how long did it take from when you made the request? I had given up placing requests since the delivery time had gotten so long.

    Hal
     
  12. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Actually there is a "small" photo of this 44-15388 Mustang, credit https://353rdfightergroup.wordpress.com/352nd-fs-aircraft/
    44-15388 'Stasia', Lt Rosaton's plane, lost by Lt Cross 27Nov44.png
    Caption: A/C 44-15388 P51D-20-NA ‘Stasia.’ Personal aircraft of Lt. Anthony R. Rosatone. The aircraft was lost, along with its pilot 1st Lt. James F. Cross, on November 27, 1944. Nobody saw what happened, but an enemy fighter attack was suspected.

    Also interesting (and odd) the Germans had Lt. Cross' original ASN 14166921 (page 10 attached). His dog tag should have reflected his officer ASN O-708663 (hmmm?)
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
    BMBazooka likes this.
  13. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Dirk also appears to have recovered more information here http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?p=232375 with member Buckeye (also a member of our forum, I think) possibly identifying the Luftwaffe pilot Uffz. Herbert Labensky 1./JG27 maybe credited with downing Lt. Cross.

    However, Baugher http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1944_1.html
    attributes this Uffz. Herbert Labensky 27 November 1944 kill as follows: P-51D-10-NA-44-14096 (359th FG, 370th FS) shot down by Bf 109G-6 flown by Uffz Herbert Labensky of JG 27/1 so of Vechta, NW of Hamelin, Germany Nov 27, 1944. MACR 10475. Pilot bailed out but was killed.
    fold3 https://www.fold3.com/image/29249880

    (Could be a Baugher error?)
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
  14. Airwar

    Airwar Well-Known Member

  15. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    From this page http://www.8thafhs.org/combat1944b.htm it doesn't look like 27 Nov 1944 was a real good day for 8th Fighter Command.
    "MONDAY, 27 NOVEMBER 1944

    STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 727: 530 bombers and 770 fighters are dispatched to make PFF attacks on marshalling yards in Germany and fighter-bomber strikes on 4 oil centers in N and C Germany; they claim 102-4-12 aircraft; 15 fighters are lost:

    1. 148 of 190 B-17s hit the Bingen marshalling yard; 2 others hit targets of opportunity; 46 bombers are damaged; 2 airmen are WIA. Escorting are 91 of 95 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).

    2. 181 of 186 B-17s hit the Offenburg marshalling yard; 1 hits Freiburg; 14 B-17s are damaged; 1 airman is WIA. Escorting are 105 of 107 P-51s; 2 P-51s are lost (pilot MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair.

    3. 144 of 154 B-24s hit the Offenburg marshalling yard; 7 others hit targets of opportunity; 9 B-24s are damaged. Escorting are 45 of 48 P-51s without loss.

    4. 460 P-47s and P-51s fly fighter-bomber missions against oil targets in N and C Germany; about 750 Luftwaffe fighters, the largest sighting to date, attack in the Magdeburg-Munster-Hannover areas when the Germans mistake the fighters for a heavy bomber formation; the AAF claims 98-4-11 aircraft in the air and 4-0-1 on the ground; 2 P-47s and 10 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA)."

    Obviously this paints a much different picture than earlier described with only one (1) loss recorded, when in reality it appears 2 P-47s and 10 P-51s were lost this day.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
  16. Hartmann Dirk

    Hartmann Dirk New Member

    Hi,

    just checked my Database for the Losses on 27th Nov.44.....no P-51 Loss in the Area around Hameln. The Loss of P-51D-10-NA-44-14096 was reported for Hoenebach near Hersfeld-Rotenburg.

    Greetings streak98 (Dirk)
     
  17. 25Kingman49

    25Kingman49 Well-Known Member

    Thank you, Dirk.

    I concur, the 8 page MACR 10475 for the loss of P-51D-10-NA-44-14096 starts here on fold3 https://www.fold3.com/image/29249880 (Link added earlier) on page 2 (attached) Hameln, Germany is noted but I think this more of a last sighting or last communication location. The subsequent included Nazi documents of the MACR confirm your Hoenebach near Hersfeld-Rotenburg location.

    My apologies for even adding this "off topic" data as it relates to 1st. Lt. James F. Cross. Only pertinent to Uffz. Herbert Labensky activity on 27 November 1944 pointing out he was likely not the Nazi pilot who shot down Lt. Cross.

    Warmest, Scott M
     

    Attached Files:

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