Missing Aircraft Loading Lists

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (Guest)

Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:30:45 GMT

MY NAME IS NORMAN SOBEL IN KINGSPORT TENNESSEE WHERE A CAPTAIN STILL ALIVE OF A BOMBER B-17 WHO WAS SHOT DOWN
DURING A RAID ON THE BALL BEARING RAID HIS NAME IS HUBERT GILLIAM AT 92 HE IS AS ALIVE AS CAN BE.......I JUST LEARNED OF
HIS FLIGHT WHICH HE GOT SHOT DOWN AND WAS WITH 25 PLANES OF WHICH MY UNCLE MOSES HOPPENSTEIN PLANE SURVIVED AND 22 GOT SHOT OUT OF THE SHY.....MY UNCLE DIED AFTER THE WAR AND COLONEL GILLIAM IS NOW MY HERO..HE GOT SHOT DOWN TWICE AND GOT UP AGAIN TO BECOME A POW.....
NORMAN SOBEL KINGSPORT TENNESSEE
[link=mailto:SOBEL!@CHARTER.NET]SOBEL!@CHARTER.NET[/link]

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (Guest)

Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:29:17 GMT

It appears that your father was on the same ship as my grandfather, Sgt. Christian Langolf, for the Antwerp raid. All I have been able to glean from the records is that this was the only mission my grandfather flew on before the unfortunate Ridgewell explosion, as he was in the 42-30024 ship when it blew up.

I'm sure your father and my grandfather at one point exchanged pleasantries of some sort. One would certainly think so.

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (Guest)

Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:28:44 GMT

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (Rick778)

Mon, 03 Sep 2007 20:36:02 GMT

Thanks a lot --- any and all info is greatly appreciated.

I started reading John Comer's book "Combat Crew" a couple days ago. Carqueville was the original pilot that trained with Comer. When they reached England he became the copilot, replaced by Paul Gleichauf, because he didn't have high altitude formation experience. I believe that my Uncle was a member when Carqueville was given his own crew.

I have seen various references list Anthony F. Fox as POW and others as KIA. Haven't done enough research to determine which is true.

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (wcarah)

Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:26:57 GMT

Carqueville went down on the Anklam raid on 9 Oct. I have not seen the MACR, but I do have the original route map from MACR 887 which was for the loss of Robert Withers' aircraft on the same raid. The original is hard to read so I have recreated it in a Mapquest map. The red dot signifies where Withers went down--in the middle of nowhere over the North Sea. Since there was a POW survivor in the Carqueville crew, I would imagine they were closer to Denmark when they went down.

John Comer in his book "Combat Crew," was once in the Carqueville crew and there is a photo and other materials in the book that would be of interest to Rick.

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (Rick778)

Sat, 01 Sep 2007 12:22:24 GMT

Thanks

I am in the process of ordering the MACR.

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (Rick778)

Sat, 01 Sep 2007 12:08:37 GMT

Thanks ---- If I would have done a little more research I could have figured it out on my own.

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (Al Crosson)

Sat, 01 Sep 2007 06:39:05 GMT

VE   532nd squadron
VP   533rd squadron
GD   534th squadron
MS   535th squadron

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (Rick778)

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 20:44:56 GMT

Thanks a lot for the info!!!!

Where can I find what the a/c codes mean?

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (shooshoobaby)

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:30:19 GMT

Rick:
B - 17# 42 - 3180 MS " Forget Me Not II "
Crashed North Sea 10/9/43
Pilot - Lt. Herbert Carqueville
9 KIA 1 POW MACR # 888
Photos of # 42 - 3180:
Vintage Aircraft Nose Art - Gary Valant Page 35
National Air and Space Museum Library:
Photo # B65820AC Photo # B65887AC
Listed on Wall of Missing Cambridge American Cemetery
For His MIA information go to www.abmc.gov
Click on WW II - follow instructions
Mike

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (LuckyM)

Fri, 31 Aug 2007 18:29:12 GMT

Here are the mission that I have for Emery Horne. Please be aware that I may not have all of his missions.
date        serial#        a/c code         pilot                        Horne position
9/15/43 42-29846       GD-          Carqueville                   gunner(tail)
9/16/43 42-3048         VP-U        Carqueville                   gunner(tail)
9/23/43 42-29803       VP-P         Carqueville                   gunner(tail) (abort)
10/2/43 42-29803       VP-P         Carqueville                   gunner(tail)
10/4/43 42-29803       VP-P         Carqueville                   gunner(tail) (abort)
10/8/43 42-29803       VP-P         Carqueville                   gunner(tail)
10/9/43 42-3180         MS-Y         Carqueville                   gunner(tail) DNR

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (Rick778)

Thu, 30 Aug 2007 21:29:19 GMT

I have been researching what missions my uncle, Emery M Horne, flew. The info I 've been able to collect from the 533rd War Diaries is as follows:

Sep 4, 1943: A new crew was assigned: 2nd Lts Robert R. Parsons, John H. Kels, Charles H. Smith, Thomas J. Cunningham; T/Sgt Walter F. Milligan, S/Sgts Vincent A. Paterno, Vito J. Gerulo, Elburn L Greene, James J. Embardo, Emery E. Horne.

Sep 16, 1943: Six ships of the 533rd took part in an attack on harbor installations at Nantes, France, flown by: Lts Shenk, Jobe, Cahow, Gleichauf, McDaniel and Carqueville. All returned safely, although the latter had three crewmen wounded in action: T/Sgt Walter F. Milligan (ETTG), S/Sgt Vincent A. Paterno (LWG), S/Sgt Emery Horne, (TG).

Oct 9, 1943: Another of our crews is missing in action, flying with the 535th: 1st Lt Herbert Carqueville, 2nd Lts Robert R. Parsons, Charles H. Smith, Thomas J. Cunningham; T/Sgts John B. Kapustka, Vito J. Gerulo, S/Sgts James J. Embardo, Anthony F. Fox, Elburn L. Greene, Emery M. Horne.

Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (jeaniegreen1010)

Thu, 14 Jun 2007 06:30:26 GMT

Hello-

I believe that I have an accurate loading list for the Berkley crew on 1 Aug 1944. My grandfather, Thomas J. Hammer was a member of that crew.
Here is the list:
2nd Lt. John "Pappy" Berkley - pilot ***
2nd Lt. Robert W. Baker - Pos. co-pilot - Serial O-820935 ***
2nd Lt. Anthony Stancampiano - Pos. NG - Serial O-719168***
S/Sgt Thomas J. Hammer - Pos. TT/ENG - Serial 35799048***
S/Sgt. Hector G. Tencich - Pos. TT/ENG - Serial 32?.697***
Sgt. James P. Morgan - Pos. WG - Serial 17076733***
Sgt. Frank K. Gunderson - Pos. WG - Serial 39137654***
Sgt. Kenneth D. Lingbloom - Pos. WG - Serial 39??.79***
Sgt. William Goudeket - Pos. BTG - Serial 32??.56***
Also listed was a 2nd Lt August F. Kaemper in July 1944 when the crew formed, but he did not turn up in my search of Berkley's crew
One more thing, in Oct. 1944, Harry L. Delaplane - Pos. B - Serial O-769263 was listed as part of Berkley's crew, both Delaplane and Frank K. Gunderson (listed above when he joined the crew in July) were killed when the right engine to their plane caught on fire and they jumped out of the plane into the North Sea (just an interesting side note.)
Anyway, I placed 3 asterisks next to the names of the crew that loaded on 1 Aug 1944. Hope this helps!

Jeanie Greenwell

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (wcarah)

Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:00:42 GMT

Hi Vic,

I guess the lesson here is always take a second look when Army paperwork is involved. As you know, I am investigating the death of several airmen, including S/Sgt. Francis Owens of the 381st., during an evasion over the Pyrenees Mountians in the Fall of 1943. I filed a FOIA request for one of the IDPF files and it contained a rather complete investigation, including forensic anthropologist reports, dental records--the works. So I am a bit surprised when the Quartermaster Corp set the date of the tragedy in November, 1943 when their own data and witness testimony clearly points to October, 1943. The result is three grave markers in Belgium, South Carolina and New Jersey with the wrong death date.

Anyways, I am glad that I have solved one of the unknown items in my father's WW-II career with the 381st. I sure wish I had asked a lot more when he was still living.

Regards,

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (tgharris)

Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:45:24 GMT

From working with loading lists of the 388th BG, I can also tell you that just because a man is listed as flying in a particular position, it doesn't mean it was so. Especially if a guy was a late scratch, and the pilot wasn't familiar with the replacement.

In addition, here's a little nugget I found: the man I've researched was a pilot, KIA in 1944. In the 388th (at least when he was flying), the pilots filled out their own loading lists. This gentleman's middle initial was "J". However, when he printed the "J", he didn't cross it. Consequently, he was initially listed as W. "V." Osterkamp, not W. "J." in the group reports. By the time the MACR was filed, the mistake was corrected. However, the mistake from the original report lived on to make its way into the book "The 388th at War".

Its little stuff like the above that can make research so interesting.

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (vic-513)

Tue, 18 Jul 2006 14:30:09 GMT

Warren,

Rest assured that there were men who were not included on the loading lists. There was an 11th man, a nose gunner, left off the loading list when my brother's plane went down. He had never flown with my brother before and, had it not been along, my brother more than likely would have survived. The navigator said that he saw him helping the man out of the nose turret. Neither of them made it out of the plane.

Vic

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (wcarah)

Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:46:12 GMT

Lucky M,

Just when I thought I had a handle on the Antwerp raid of 22 June 1943, I found in the ArmyAirForces.com archives an old note to Scott Burris from my father, John Carah, dated 6 Oct 2000 regarding the Antwerp raid:

"Scott-this is a public answer to your message re the Tragedy at Ridgewell RAF Station on 23 June 1943. Yes--I was there and just the day before I had flown in this B-17F that blew up and killed 23 airmen.This was on our Group's first mission to Antwerp,Belgium.. Lt. Withers was the pilot--Col Nazzaro, our Group commander was in the right seat, and B/Gen Hunter, Commander of the 8th Air Force Fighter command was standing near the pilots. I was in the tail gunners position as Gen Hunter wanted a pilot in the tail for observation of his P-47s-also their first mission. We landed safely and the next moring as the planes were being loaded for that days mission-a terrific explosion occured on the flight line. Apparently as the bombs were being loaded, an armed bomb was dropped and the resultant explosion killed the 23 airmen and destroyed or rendered unflyable three B-17s. A good friend, Navigator Paul Tull was in an adjoining B-17 and was killed instantly when a piece of metal from the exploding B-17 pierced his head. This most certainly was a horrible introduction to war--and not in the air. WHen I made my way to my plane a saw bits and pieces of human bodies scattered all around..Not a pretty sight..I remember seeing 5 toes--but, no foot. Whether this made a difference on how bombs were loaded--I do not know--for a few days later I was shot down on 4 July 1943. John USAF Ret. "

So it appears we have a new wrinkle on the loading list question. I had heard before it was common for pilots to sit in the TG position later in the war to observe formation discipline and bombing accuracy, but I did not know they also did this to guage fighter effectiveness.

What had been frustrating is that while my father got official credit for the Antwerp mission, I could never figure out who he was flying with--now I know. I don't know what to make of the official loading list for Wither's aircraft that you posted earlier. Either they changed without being corrected or they did not include a full listing of all persons who might be on an aircraft.

Regards,

Warren

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (airwar)

Tue, 28 Feb 2006 04:17:27 GMT

LuckyM here is my info;

22-6-1943,time,09.30,crashed;Hoek near Terneuzen,Holland,B-17F,42-30016,381 BG/532 BS,1/Lt.E.R.Horr
22-6-1943,time,09.15,crashed;Oosterschelde/2 miles E.Krabbendijke,B-17F,42-30021,381 BG/533 BS
1/Lt.J.J.Martin
30-7-1943,time;10.45,crashed;Apeldoorn,Holland,B-17F,42-3100,381 BG/532 BS,Maj.R.F.Post
19-8-1943,time,19.30,crashed;Rozenburg,Holland,B-17F,42-3101,381 BG/535 BS,1/Lt.O.H.Koenig
5-11-1943,time,14.00,crashed;Klundert,Holland,B-17F,42-30852,381 BG/535 BS,1/Lt.D.K.Hopp

From the craslog SGLO The Netherlands

regards Jaap

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (wcarah)

Fri, 17 Feb 2006 21:39:03 GMT

LM:

I contacted some persons familiar with the 384th and they do not have anything relating to either Nazzaro, my father or any 381st person on one of their aircraft during the Antwerp raid. I am now chasing the lead with a former 91st BG member who has a bank of data and who may be able to tell me more about the roll of the 91st. BG in the Antwerp raid. Thanks again for your support--the mystery will eventually be resolved.

RE: Missing Aircraft Loading Lists (LuckyM)

Fri, 17 Feb 2006 19:39:11 GMT

Warren,
             Here is a little more on the 22 Jun 43 mission to Antwerp.
                No. Dispatched   No. Effective   Losses(MIA) Losses(E)
381 BG            22                        19                  2                  1
384 BG            20                        20                  2                  0

I don't remember the name of the source where I obtained the data. I do have the pilot names for the 20 384 BG aircraft and the names of the crews for the 2 lost. I firmly believe that 381st crews flew some 91st BG aircraft and that your father probably was on one of these aircraft. I generally find as I do research that statements like those made in the Group War Diary have some validity when viewed from a slightly different perspective. Do you know of any contacts that might have forms listing the missions flown by other members of the 381st? That might shed additional light.