Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (dennis_burke)

Wed, 08 May 2013 04:47:43 GMT

To try and bring some sense to this thread which has been confusing me a lot!
Howard did send me the 30 Sep load list for the 452nd.
its shows 13 aircraft and crews among them Clifton Eccles crew on aircraft #878, i.e. the last three digits of the serial are 878.
The list of typed names on this report match identically the list of written names, there is no mention of Palmer or Hoette.
Capt174, were you referring to some other typed/hand written list?

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (hkellerjr)

Wed, 08 May 2013 02:03:32 GMT

Dennis, Just emailed you the unit Load List information from 30 Sep 44. Email address used was one listed as your contact email on your website. Thank you, Howard

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (dennis_burke)

Tue, 07 May 2013 15:23:36 GMT

The following website gives this history for that aircraft:
http://www.8thafhs.com/db/get_one_acgroup.php?acgroup_id=30
B-17G43-37878n/a452BG730BS 43-37878 Delivered: Cheyenne 31/5/44; Kearney 16/6/44; Grenier 30/6/44; Assigned: 730BS/452BG Deopham Green 2/7/44; MIA Munster 4/10/44 Pilot:

And this old thread on this very forum also gives it lost in October 1944.
http://forum.armyairforces.com/4337878-m95849.aspx

Capt174, can you qualify where you are getting this serial number from, it helps us to help you. Are you getting it from your fathers log book or from elsewhere?

Also, Capt174, can I ask for a scanned copy of the load list info you quoted from before, we just like to have original copies of things to back up our information. I hope you can provide, I can give a postal address if you can't electronically scan.

regards

Dennis

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (Capt174)

Tue, 07 May 2013 10:20:39 GMT

I twisted the numbers around on the aircraft used on Sept 30. The correct tail number for my father's plane was 43-37878. I don't see aircraft 43-38201 as one of his aircraft. I will check in to this aircraft and let ya'll know.

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (jpeters140)

Sun, 05 May 2013 18:19:06 GMT

Joe Baugher's list of aircraft serial numbers lists 42-38787 as a Cessna AT-17B

First....RAAF stands for Royal AUSTRALIAN Air Force.....and second, the 301st BG was stationed in Italy in September 1944, in the 15th AF.

Let's be sure we all are on the same page.....:-)

Jim :-)

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (Capt174)

Sun, 05 May 2013 17:23:42 GMT

I have received a MSN list for my father that reports the aircraft used on the 30th of Sept to Bielfeld as 42-38787. I have not as yet researched that aircraft but it may be the ill faded bomber in question. I will report back as information becomes available.

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (Alex Smart)

Wed, 01 May 2013 15:27:56 GMT

Hi,
Re "Dog Breath" or is it "Dog Breath II" ?
http://forum.armyairforces.com/Kim-4231330-DOG-BREATH-w-m5179.aspx?high=Spain
and
http://forum.armyairforces.com/SACK-TIME-SIOUX-m171547.aspx?high=Dog+Breath+II
Alex

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (dennis_burke)

Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:49:30 GMT

Hello again Howard and Capt174,

did you exchange scans of the load lists? I too would be interested in seeing them due to the Irish connection.

regards

Dennis

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (Alex Smart)

Fri, 19 Apr 2013 07:24:19 GMT

Hello All,
Here is some of the details that I received from Charles way back in 2004.

Hi Alex:
I think I have identified the aircraft, even have spoken to two men who were aboard it before being forced to bail out. Without question I know I have the right crew, but the identity of the a/c is a bit troublesome since I cannot prove without question I've got the right plane. I'm still working on that aspect of the story.
One other part of the puzzle I'm still working is the identity of the aircraft/units that attempted to intercept the bomber as it droned across the UK. By chance are you anywhere near enough to London that you could pop in to the PRO? I'm trying to confirm that Polish Spits from either 316 or 303 Sqns. found the aircraft, but were unable to shoot it down due to fears it might crash in a populated area. A quick look see in the ORB for those squadrons for 30 Sept 1944 should set the record straight pretty quickly.
I have spoken and corresponded with the FAA Seafire pilot who attempted to knock the Fortress out of the sky just as it crossed over Ireland. Again, I can prove this happened as I have a copy of his logbook page from that day. There was also a second Seafire from the same squadron that also intercepted the B-17, but was unarmed and could do nothing. I also have his logbook page as well.
One thing that might interest you is that according to the one of the bomber's crew, the UK press of the day was most unkind in their remarks about the US crew who abandoned the aircraft. One paper (Evening Standard?) even went so far as to say the crew should have sacrificed themselves if necessary by crashing the aircraft into the sea to have ensured the aircraft did not endanger the lives of those on the ground.
Anyway, that's where things stand.
cgj

AND

Alex:
You are correct, no MACR was submitted since the crew was safely recovered.
As for the crew, I've been in contact with the three who are still alive, as well as the families of all but one of those who've already passed away. (The one whose family I can't find apparently died very soon after the war, and I've had no luck tracking down his family.) Sadly, one of the surviving crew is quite mentally confused, but the other two survivors have been most helpful. Same with the families I've been able to track down, they all knew the story of the runaway bomber as told to them by their loved one.
I'm quite skeptical about the Polish fighters having been based in NI, although I know Donal MacCarron made that claim in at least one of his books. I've corresponded with a couple of Polish aviation historians who tell me they would be surprised if the Polish aircraft came from NI. The Seafires I mentioned earlier were from NI, however.
At this point, I'd prefer not to provide any info on the aircraft, at least until I can come up with more evidence to prove I have the correct B-17. I'm waiting for some additional data from the USAF History Office, so hopefully that data will son be available.
cgj

ALSO,

From 12 O'Clock High Forum:

"Tony Kearns 30/9/44 Crewless B17 Thu Feb 12, 2004 03:35 194.125.53.110
Hi Alex and all, This question was raised in September 2002 last by yours truly on this board. As always Alex you were your usual helpful self, I still have not been able to identify it.Alex I would advise caution on depending on accuracy in that book, written by a person who thinks RAAF stands for Royal Aux Air Force. I don't know where he arrived at the Polish fighters trying to catch it. A FAA Seafire observed it, but was ordered away as it had crossed into neutral territory. Four Irish Air Corps aircraft were involved in attempts to locate it, but we had no radar here. Regards Tony K

Sports Betting — Server.com Sponsor

30/9/44 Crewless B17 — Alex Smart, Wed Feb 11 23:41
- 30/9/44 Crewless B17 — Tony Kearns, Thu Feb 12 03:35
  - Crewless B-17 — charles jarrells, Sat Feb 14 05:07
    - Crewless B17 — Tony Kearns, Sat Feb 14 20:56
      - Crewless B-17 — cg jarrells, Sun Feb 15 01:27
        Crewless B-17 — Tony Kearns, Mon Feb 16 01:48
        Crewlewss B-17 — cg jarrells, Mon Feb 16 07:01
        Crewless B-17 — Tony Kearns, Mon Feb 16 16:06
        Crewless B-17 — cg jarrells, Mon Feb 16 19:55
  - Ask my father — Andy Loates, Thu Feb 12 19:35
    - Thanks Andy (nm) (nm) — cg jarrells, Sat Feb 14 19:41
  - RAAF ? — Alex Smart, Thu Feb 12 05:39"

All for now
Alex

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (Alex Smart)

Wed, 17 Apr 2013 21:08:02 GMT

Hello Rolland,
Thank you for adding the 452nd Book link, I had not seen it.(have the book).

Question: I have seen that in some Groups/Squadrons that an aircraft's nickname lived on / was used on more than one aircraft. i.e if say an aircraft named "Sweetie" was lost or taken out of use or transfered. Another fresh or new (perhaps) aircraft soon apeared with the nickname "Sweetie".
Is it at all possible that such a thing happened with "Melancholy Baby" ? and that the aircraft that Babbs and Triplett flew in on the 30th was not 43-38201 but another aircraft, serial as yet unknown, that had been (or would soon be by the crew) named "Melancholy Baby" ?

There are a reports in print that confirm the truth of this event as RAF and RN in the UK and Northern Ireland including Polish pilots (training in Mustangs in Northern Ireland if I recall correctly) as well as Eire AF pilots were sent in persuit of the unmand B17 which was last seen out over the Atlantic IIRC.
If I get the time I will look up these refs.
All for now
Alex

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (Alex Smart)

Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:30:20 GMT

Hello,
Additionally -
Re: Capt. Beuchat, Herman R. O-801471.
From document on Flag 3.
"Organization: 301st Bomb. Sqn. 353rd Bomb. Gp. (? think it should have been 353rd Bomb Sqn, 301st Bomb Gp. ?)
Area: Cherbourg, France
Type of Plane: B-17 Nickname: "Dog Breath"
Mission: Bombing
Crew:
Herman R. Beuchat O-801471 2Lt.
Evertt S. Phillips O-751755 2Lt.
Arthur F. Miller O-809678 Capt.
Robert J. Davis O-751814 2Lt.
Jack R. Miller O-737199 2Lt.
Gordon A. Piland 33225199 S/Sgt.
James W. Whitted 38150654 Sgt.
Alden C. Petersen 19066102 S/Sgt.
David Fineman 1533552 Sgt.
Thomas R. Wiley 18208488 Sgt
Lawrence D. Kenning 37198870 S/Sgt"

Could be about MACR 15452 - 26th March 1944 B-17 - 301st Bomb Group.

So a/c nickname now known but serial number not as yet known.
301st's mission (mission number 240) this date was Steyr, Austria, ball bearing factory.
Another mystery to solve.

Alex

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (RSwank)

Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:19:47 GMT

Here is a link to the information Alex posted above, including the newspaper story about the
"Bomb Laden Ghost Ship". Scroll to page 110.

Note that after the newspaper story, the book has these lines.
"This plane was salvaged the next day. This fact proves the above story is false."

Missing Planes Groups Of The 452nd Bomb Group - Page 110 - Google B

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (Alex Smart)

Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:00:08 GMT

Hello,
Its been a while since I visited this problem of "Melancholy Baby".
I recall that I asked way back of the possibilities of a B17 being in a landing accident and returned to ops for a mission the very next day.
From the Accident Report on 43-38201 (731st Squadron) it looks like it was a minor accident on the 29th.
Crew was -
pilot: Capt. Beuchat, Herman R. O-801471
Co-Pilot: 2Lt. Wagoner, Charles J. O-1294942
Nav: 2Lt. O'Keefe, Francis G. O-723154
RadOp: T/sGT. Korosec, Joseph J. 35059116
Eng:T/Sgt. Mangun, Thurston P. 34666568
A/c on a local Training flight, Co-pilot raised landing gear instead of flaps.
Co-pilot was a pilot riding in the right seat and unfamiliarity with Co-pilot procedure was without doubt the determing factor.
Mangum's statement says "informed by Lt. Wagoner that the gear was down, switch in neutral, checked landing gear with hand crank(main & tail), checked ball turret and trailing antennae. I returned to the flight deck and reported to Lt. Wagoner that the gear was down, ball turret stowed and trailing antennae was in. A normal landing was made, except that on the landing roll the gear suddenly collapsed".
43-38201 was the last of a three a/c practice formation to land. About half way up the runway the gear collapsed, no 4 engine caught fire, a/c skidded aprox 100 yards on its belly about 800 yds from up-wind end of runway. No injuries. Ball Turret, Nose turret and propellers badly damaged. 4 photos of a/c included in report, one shows tail marking to be either "E+" or "F+" ? I would lean towards it being "F+".

"Missing Planes of the 452nd Bomb Group" 3rd edition by Ed Hinrichs has -
Page 110/111
Sept 29, 1944 No Mission
Plane 43-38201 Pilot error, on landing hit the wrong switch causing failure of landing gear. Plane damaged, crew OK.
Sept 30, 1944 - Bielefeld - Mission #141
I received this information from George Babb on Dec. 14, 1998.
Plane # 43-38201, "Melancholy Baby", 728th Squadron
( Crew listed as Eccles, Danos, Modrick, Palmer, Edwards, Babb, Lacy, Wilson and Triplett).
Max effort mission, had difficult time starting the aircraft, after leaving the hard stand had to return for repairs. When finally made successful take-off the #3 engine caught fire, At about 3000 feet pilot gave bailout order. All bailout and land safe except two. The Co-pilot broke his ankle and the radio man suffered a back fracture, compression D12 L1. Both were hospitalized for months. The pilot, Navigator, Bombardier,finished their tour with different crews and all enlisted men were transfered to USAF in Italy.
This is followed by a transcript of the Indianapolis, Indiana Star Ghost Ship newspaper report.

If the Ball turret was stowed what kind of dammage would it have received for it to be reported as being "badly dammaged" ? And so back to the question of how did she get to be back in action as it were the very next day ?
Alex

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (RSwank)

Wed, 17 Apr 2013 07:16:39 GMT

I tried checking on some of these in the NARA files.

18194191 Edwards, Douglas E, OK (note: 18194191 not 18194181)
35769461 Triplett, Amburse J Jr WV
14153106 Lacy, Edmond A KY (note middle initial A not J)
37726293 Wilson, Kennerd MO (note 37726293 not 37726273)
35038470 Babb, Paul G IN (Note full serial number and middle initial G)

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (hkellerjr)

Wed, 17 Apr 2013 02:53:03 GMT

1. I show the following names on the typed Unit Load List:
      Eccles
      Dumas
      Modrick
      Blades
      Edwards
      Babb
      Wislson
      Lacy
      Tripplett
2. Hand written on the unit Load Lists are the following names:
      Blades
      Dumas
      Eccles
      Modrick
      Wilson
      Tripplett
      Lacy
      Edward
      Babb

3. If you would like me to scan and send via email, please PM your email address.
4. Please advise.

Thank you, Howard

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (Capt174)

Wed, 17 Apr 2013 00:44:39 GMT

As far as two list I can only speculate at this moment but there may have been changes to the crew when they taxied back to maintenance for the repair. My Dad never mentioned anything about that. I will continue to investigate when I return home. I am presently in Maui until May 2.

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (Capt174)

Wed, 17 Apr 2013 00:41:28 GMT

According to my dad, they broke the crew up because of the publicity the incident received. He felt that the they, The military, wanted to put this incident quietly away as quickly as possible. It received a lot of bad press between the British and the U.S. Forces. He said they were all questioned about the incident shortly after it occurred, then were transferred. I have him flying with the 452nd until Oct 15 1944.

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (Capt174)

Wed, 17 Apr 2013 00:29:12 GMT

The serial numbers for " Melancholy Baby" 43-38201 are difficult to read . I will give you the ones I can read first followed by the ones I question.

Blades    757367
Dumas   555881
Modrick 737145
Wilson    37726273
Triplett   35769461
Lacy       14153106
Edmonds 18194181
Babb       035470

Eccles     769_63 Not sure of this one. I will continue to look.
These were all hand written at the bottom of the load list.

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (dennis_burke)

Tue, 16 Apr 2013 18:39:51 GMT

Sorry Howard,
when you say the load list confirms the crew, Mr. Triplett above has given two lists as such.
What do you take to be the correct crew list for this bail out?

Looking forward to seeing this page if possible.

Typed List
Pilot     2Lt Clifton Eccles
Copilot 2Lt  Victor M Dumas
Nav     2Lt   Joseph A Modrick
Bdier   2Lt  Edward L Palmer
TT       S/Sgt Douglas E Edwards
Radio   S/Sgt Paul C Babb
BT       Sgt     Norton J. Hoette
WG     Sgt      Edmond J lacy
TG      Sgt      Jack A Triplett

Hand written list
Eccles,
Dumas,
Modrick,
Blades,
Wilson
Edmonds
Babb

Lacy
Triplett

Cheers

Dennis

Re: Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England (hkellerjr)

Tue, 16 Apr 2013 03:41:33 GMT

Unit Load List, dated 30 September 1944 confirms the crew. Hand written names confirm crew members that bailed out and were returned to duty.
My question is why did they break up the crew? Officers remained in 452nd BG and NCO's sent to 15th AF.