Looking for full tail number(s) Mission 24th Dec 1944

Re:Looking for full tail number(s) Mission 24th Dec 1944 (Joost de Raaf)

Sat, 23 Jun 2012 05:17:33 GMT

Think I found it,

8351 also appeared on formation plan of dec 23rd, with a note that all GH-PFF ships were borrowed from 303rd BG
Have to give credit to skyhawk & Shooshoobaby for already pointing that out to me.. Tkx gents, I was wrong.

Searched on 303rd BG site and found this Although not very clear, The B-17 marked in document as 44-8351 / VK-Z clearly shows tailmarking of 92nd BG in my opinion.

Regards
Joost de Raaf

Re:Looking for full tail number(s) Mission 24th Dec 1944 (MIKEE)

Mon, 14 May 2012 15:02:40 GMT

The book "Route As Briefed" mentions my uncle Edward Etzel Jr I beliveve on page 320?He was KIA Jan 1,1945,,,please go to my facebook page 'Mike Etzel" and view my memorial links to him,,,,I hope to find some more info/pictures/mission briefs,,,keep me in mind,,,Thanks

Mike

Re:Looking for full tail number(s) Mission 24th Dec 1944 (Joost de Raaf)

Mon, 14 May 2012 13:32:32 GMT

Hi Mikee,
43-38449 does appear on formation plan of 92nd indeed.
That airframe flew in 40th CBW "A" Group / Low Sqn / Low Low Element

Regards
Joost

Re:Looking for full tail number(s) Mission 24th Dec 1944 (MIKEE)

Mon, 14 May 2012 13:23:29 GMT

What about plane # 43-38449Z,,,my Uncle Edward Etzel Jr flew on that Christmas Eve Mission to Frankfurt 92nd/407th,,,

Re:Looking for full tail number(s) Mission 24th Dec 1944 (Joost de Raaf)

Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:49:14 GMT

Thanks again Mike!
Like the story about the Unmarked red tailed B-17

40CBW D group as a whole was Composite, with 306th BG in the Lead, 305th als Low and 92nd as High
forgot to mention, In all the formation plans I have seen, if a plane of a different group would be present in a formation it would be marked by only stating his Unit rather than his Tailnumber, hence my believe "8351" is/was a 92nd B-17

Formation plan showed for 92nd group 40CBW D High :

                                                                                           8351
                 (43-3)8453 / JW-F                       (43-3)8270 / JW-K         (42-9)7660 / JW-X                    (44-)8436 / JW-H
(42-3)8156 / JW-E          (43-3)8279/ JW-N                                                                      (43-3)7847/ JW-C (43-3)8684 / JW-L
                                                                                          (44-)6471 / JW-M
                                                                  (42-3)1536 / JW-O         (44-)8281 / JW-A

11 of these attacked Bellersheim & 1 bombed t/o at 50 30N 09 10E

Joost

Re:Looking for full tail number(s) Mission 24th Dec 1944 (shooshoobaby)

Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:33:38 GMT

Joost -
My 92d BG Book , The Route as Briefed , notes
the High D Formation was a Composite Group.
92d BG Lead Pilot was Major Albert Cox. 325th SQ. CO.
Also , a Strange B-17 with no Stars and Bars and Red tail
approached the Formation near Malmedy and lagged behind
the Low Group. Flak , which had been Light and Inacurate ,
suddenly became Very Accurate. Gunners were ordered to
keep Guns trained on the B-17 and Radio Calls to it were
unanswered. B-17 then left the Formation , Flew North
and disappeared.
Mike

Re:Looking for full tail number(s) Mission 24th Dec 1944 (Joost de Raaf)

Sun, 29 Jan 2012 14:10:09 GMT

shooshoobaby

Joost -
Listed in Roger Freeman's B-17 History Book.
# 44 - 8351 VK Z
Assigned 303d BG , 358th SQ. 11/2/44
Transferred to 384th BG 5/10/45
Mike

Cheers Mike, that's also the info I found in mentioned book. I therefore concluded 8351 was a typing error and it might have been 8251 instead. (43-3)8251 is listed in same book as Assigned to 8AF, only down side to that is 43-38251 is a BO model and I believe most PFF ships were VE built models....

Joost

Re:Looking for full tail number(s) Mission 24th Dec 1944 (shooshoobaby)

Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:52:54 GMT

Joost -
Listed in Roger Freeman's B-17 History Book.
# 44 - 8351 VK Z
Assigned 303d BG , 358th SQ. 11/2/44
Transferred to 384th BG 5/10/45
Mike

Re:Looking for full tail number(s) Mission 24th Dec 1944 (Joost de Raaf)

Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:42:34 GMT

Hi Tom,

Thanks for you reply.

I was under Impression 92nd did had their own PFF planes
As the following were also flying marked on formation plan as PFF and I could Id them as 92nd BG
8367 -> 44-8367
8450 -> 44-8450
8354 -> 44-8354
7778 -> 42-97778
8022 -> 44-8022 (Force landed on Continent that Mission)
7660 -> 42-97660

Plse Advise? My theory was/is that a typing error was made making this formation plan regarding 8351

Regards
Joost

Re:Looking for full tail number(s) Mission 24th Dec 1944 (skyhawk)

Sun, 29 Jan 2012 13:29:21 GMT

If it was a PFF equipped aircraft as the "8351 / PFF" indicates then 44-8351 is the most likely serial number. The PFF planes were at that time assigned to the 303 & 384BGs and then loaned out to the groups that needed a lead PFF aircraft.

Hope that helps.

Tom Bass

Looking for full tail number(s) Mission 24th Dec 1944 (Joost de Raaf)

Sun, 29 Jan 2012 06:21:35 GMT

Hello all,

In a general interest in 8th AF & missions flown I am trying to get a picture of mission flown on Dec 24th 1944. The largest mission flown.
I do have some pdf files containing reports to 8th AF HQ and they do also contain formation plans on that date

Also of 92nd BG I have a formation plan and I was able to Id most of them, using Bit's & Pieces & B-17 Flying fortress story

There is however one B-17 which puzzles me
Last 4 digits were shown, unfortunately no pilot names
Was wondering if anyone can help me out with following:

8351 / PFF -> 43-38351 (34BG & Sal before this mission) / 44-8351 ( 303BG & 384BG)
I do think therefore 8351 is not correct.
She was flying as lead in High Group of 40thCBW D group
B-17's with last 3 digits 351 only gives :

41-24351
42-3351
42-31351
42-97351
43-38351
44-6351
44-8351
44-83351
All of them in my opinion are not correct.

However, 43-38251 is listed in B-17 story as Assigned to 8AF
Could this one be the one I am looking for?

Many thanks in Advance
Regards
Joost de Raaf
Apeldoorn, The Netherlands