ID Crew of 42-3127 MIA 21-May-43 Wilhelmshaven

Re:ID Crew of 42-3127 MIA 21-May-43 Wilhelmshaven (MB0427)

Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:07:12 GMT

The 94th BG's 410th Sq. was attached to the 306th BG's 423rd Sq. on 21 May 1943. Lt. Lerg was my dad's Navigator and best friend. Regards, Marc

Re:ID Crew of 42-3127 MIA 21-May-43 Wilhelmshaven (lee8thbuff)

Sat, 21 Jan 2012 15:34:05 GMT

Marc,
It seems possible that 42-3127 may have been flown by Wieand from the 94th, especially if what you say is true about the 333 and 410 being stationed with the 306th at Thurleigh on 21-May-43. I looked at the mission reports of 306th for 15-May-43 and 17-May-43 and they both listed different crews for 42-3127 on those missions with the only common name as a 1LT Z. D. Davis who was co-pilot on the 15-May mission and pilot on the 17-May mission. This would lend credence to 42-3127 being a "spare" without a regular crew and possibly loaned to the 94th. I would, however, point out that IF the 333BS and 410BS were stationed at Thurleigh, would they not have had THEIR aircraft with them, and NOT had to borrow one from 306th??? That seems to be a possibility also. The MACRs pertaining to these two BGS on this mission were all made AFTER the war in 1946, and I believe those who prepared them may not have been as careful as they might have in obtaining the facts and we are left trying to straighten it out 70 years later. I would probably settle for identifying all the crews that were MIA on this mission, even though I might have them in the wrong aircraft.
Thank you so much for your contribution.

Re:ID Crew of 42-3127 MIA 21-May-43 Wilhelmshaven (MB0427)

Sat, 21 Jan 2012 13:43:44 GMT

     The crew names listed by Terveurn are correct to the best of my knowledge, although I have not run them through the enlistment records database. Many misspellings in 94th records.
     Odd that both A/C are shown in MACR's as going down with Lt. Wieand on fold3.com. Also that there are no MACR's for Lts. Wetzel and Ecklund who were lost on the same mission. Also that the Wieand MACR was filled out in 1946. The 333rd and 410th Squadrons were attached to the 306th when arriving in April 1943. Some crew members filled in on 306th crews and a crew would fill in with the 306th at times. It was a matter of flying whichever A/C were available at the time and the 94th did fly 306th A/C here and there and vice versa. Although the 306th formation chart has some penciled in info which is somewhat illegible it appears 42-3127 may have been on loan to the 94th from the 306th in May 43 and they used a different A/C in its place. It is "thought" that Lt. Wieand flew #127, however no concrete evidence yet as many records from early 1943 are still missing. The 94th moved to Earle's Colne on 25 May and then to Bury St. Edmunds on 13 June and some boxes of records may have been lost in transit.
     If we knew what actually happened to 42-29682 it would go a long way to clearing up the mystery. I will keep working on it. Regards, Marc

Re:ID Crew of 42-3127 MIA 21-May-43 Wilhelmshaven (Terveurn)

Fri, 20 Jan 2012 18:13:05 GMT

From Loss's of the 8th & 9th AF (Pg 129)

306 / 367th BS (GY * ?)

Pilot: 1Lt Martin Wieand
C/P: 2nd William A Moore Jr
N: 2Lt Frederick R McGuidwin
B: 1Lt William A Moore Jr
TTG: T/SGT Willard h Hoff
RO: Sgt Edward F Via
BTG: S/Sgt Russell R Hutchins
W/G: S/Sgt Edward L Lutkehause
W/G: S/Sgt Lee V Gossett
TG: S/Sgt Raymond C Raddatz

Re:ID Crew of 42-3127 MIA 21-May-43 Wilhelmshaven (lee8thbuff)

Fri, 20 Jan 2012 15:07:14 GMT

Well, here is another curious wrinkle. LT Olaf Ecklund and crew were assigned to the 94BG/333BS. It just so happens that on the 21-May-43 raid to Emden the 94th lost 42-29834 assigned to the 333BS. Seems most reasonable that LT Ecklund and crew of the 333BS would have been flying an aircraft assigned to the 410BS. Here's what I think is the resolution:
The ID of the crew of 42-3127 306BG/367BS is UNKNOWN- NO MACR
42-29682 94BG/410BS was flown by Lt. Weiand and crew per MACR 15096
42-29727 94BG/331BS was flown by Lt. Lowell Wetzell and crew - NO MACR
42-29834 94BG/333BS was flown by LT Olaf Ecklund and crew - NO MACR
Perhaps I should bring this topic up in the 94thBG Forum to see if anyone has a better explanation.
When was your Bits and Pieces document produced? If it was formulated during the 306th's tour it has more of a chance of being correct that if it was put together after the war. Its just too bad that the Squadron Clerks didn't do a better job of making the MACRS at the time.

Re:ID Crew of 42-3127 MIA 21-May-43 Wilhelmshaven (RSwank)

Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:59:46 GMT

Besides Morton vs Martin Wieand. The other differences are:
Lutkenhus vs Lutkenhaus
Phillip H Auld is not listed in the crew on fold3.com
McGuildwyn vs  McGuidivin
These and couple of other differences (rank and serial number digit differences) are also noted in the MACR on fold3, where they point out these differences between the BCR (Battle Casualty Reports) list and the 3rd "Indorsement" list.
By the time they get to the 10th "Indorsement" list, Morton is back to Martin. Moore has a Jr. McGuildwyn is changed to McGuidwin., Lutkenhus is changed to Lutkehause. Very sloppy work.

Re:ID Crew of 42-3127 MIA 21-May-43 Wilhelmshaven (shooshoobaby)

Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:33:05 GMT

Lee -
My Bits and Pieces Book Lists the Crew of
Lt. Olaf Ecklund , 94th BG as Shot down on
B-17 # 42 - 29682. No MACR #.
Mike

Re:ID Crew of 42-3127 MIA 21-May-43 Wilhelmshaven (lee8thbuff)

Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:24:36 GMT

Yes, there were 3 94BG aircraft lost on this raid. I'm positive that Lt. Morton Wieand and crew were assigned to the 94BG/410BS and were flying 42-29682, which was assigned to the 410BS and lost on that raid.

Re:ID Crew of 42-3127 MIA 21-May-43 Wilhelmshaven (shooshoobaby)

Fri, 20 Jan 2012 14:05:08 GMT

Lee - Rolland,
#42 - 3127 GY M
306th BG , 367th Sq.
Failed to Return 5/21/43
No other Info
The Lt. Martin Wieand Crew is Listed in Bits and Pieces
Crew Lists as a 94th BG Crew.
B-17 # 42 - 29834
Shot down 5/21/43
10 KIA No MACR #
From 306th BG Book Page 121 - " Tragedy for the Day was not restricted to the 306th BG. Three B-17s from the 94th BG, still stationed at Thurleigh , went on a Mission to Emden and the Crew of Lt. Wieand was Lost in Action".
Mike

Re:ID Crew of 42-3127 MIA 21-May-43 Wilhelmshaven (RSwank)

Fri, 20 Jan 2012 13:32:01 GMT

It looks like this topic has come up before. I looked at the fold3.com for MACR 15096. The MACR is not filed under a serial number, but appears in the "blank" pages section for 1943. It gives the pilot's name Morton Wieand not Martin Wieand as is discussed below. There is no serial number on the MACR page, but "annotations"
have been added that link to either serial number if you search for a serial number. Very confusing.

http://forum.armyairforces.com/Confused-and-need-help-m156467.aspx

ID Crew of 42-3127 MIA 21-May-43 Wilhelmshaven (lee8thbuff)

Fri, 20 Jan 2012 12:52:50 GMT

To my knowledge there was no MACR issued that documented this loss. Some have indicated that MACR 15096 was the documentation. However, that would have a 94BG crew flying a 306BG aircraft to Emden. I suppose this is a possibility. I believe that MACR 15096 rightfully belongs to 42-29682 of 94BG/410BS, the only loss of a 94thBG aircraft from 410BS on that date.