Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons

Re:Dawson Project A-29 Hudsons (tonystro)

Thu, 06 Oct 2011 11:08:54 GMT

Alex,
Thanks for the additional information.

   It appears that at least nine of these planes survived ferrying and training stages to enter combat. Here is information I garnered today while searching on a non-related topic:

Excerpted from “Aerial Engagements of the Second Sino-Japanese War” website (1), and Hakans Aviation Page – Sino Japanese Air War 1942 (2):

   In August 1941, American Lockheed Hudson A-29 bombers arrived in China (22 planes turned over to Chinese Air Force). The Chinese 9th and 30th Bomber Squadrons were re-equipped with the Hudson A-29. In October 1941 the 9th Bomber Squadron was combat ready and flew bombing missions on Yuncheng, Shanxi, Hankou, and other Japanese-occupied cities in China. (1)

   The 11th BS (Chinese Air Force) began to re-equip with the Lockheed A-29 at Xinjin in October 1942. At this point, the entire 2nd BG (CAF) flew the Lockheed. (2)

   On 27 October 1942, 12 P-43s of the Chinese Air Force flying from Taipingsi, Sichuan, escorted nine A-29 Hudsons in a raid on Yungcheng, Shanxi. They destroyed one Japanese aircraft on the ground without suffering losses. (1)

   2 Nov 42 - Four Chinese A-29s bombed airfields and Customs House Warf at Hankou. Cotton mills at Wuchang set afire. Three seaplanes were reported destroyed on the ground and five aircraft were destroyed at Wong-Kia-Den.(2)

   27 November -- Six Chinese A-29s and five SBs bombed enemy vessels and ferrying equipment at Shasi, Shayang and Tatukow. Airdrome and storehouses at Shadi were damaged. One A-29 and three SBs force-landed due to bad weather. (2)

   An American technical representative who spent three months with the CAF estimated that as of 1 February, the CAF’s serviceable American equipment amounted to nine A-29s, 45 P-66s, 18 P-43s and 18-20 P-40s. (2)

Re:Dawson Project A-29 Hudsons (Alex Smart)

Thu, 29 Sep 2011 22:15:59 GMT

Hello Tony,
Only yesterday have seen your latest post and attachments.
Many thanks.
Just to add that from the AirForceHistory Index site The names that were with Van Kuster or Von Kuster on 29th July 42 (41-23593 [41-23953]) were Sproal, Jerome; Brown, Roscoe; and Waters W.
I found also George, David M. was in Dickinson, Samuel R's crew with Hyslop, William R. a/c 41-23591 on 13th June 42.
Some had as many as nine on board and others seem to have had only two or three.
All the best
Alex

Re:Dawson Project A-29 Hudsons (tonystro)

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 17:13:46 GMT

Attached images are scans of photocopies of orders possessed by one of the pilots on the Dawson Project. These orders send the 24 surviving planes, 24 pilots and 24 engineers from Khartoum to Chungking, or other Chinese cities as necessary, to deliver the aircraft to the Chinese Air Force. At least two of these aircraft and their crew members did not make; one plane (41-23592) crashed at Khartoum, and one (serial unknown) went missing during flight segment from India to Kunming, China. Two others (serials not confirmed) were damaged and left behind by the 'Dawson Project' personnel; one at Kano and one at Karachi.

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (tonystro)

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 16:45:49 GMT

Alex,

According to the orders I have sending the 24 A-29s from Khartoum to Chungking (see scanned images in next post), aircraft 41-37188 (FH387?) was piloted by 1Lt Robert N. McCarten. Enroute from Khartoum to Karachi, India he landed at Aden for refueling. From my interview of S/Sgt Berton Lee, engineer on aircraft 41- 23249, LtCol. Neal led and McCarten was number three of five aircraft making the trip that day. “During take off from Aden, McCarten ground looped his plane, and it burnt. He and Clancey (James N.), the crew chief, were uninjured, but they now were to be passengers aboard other planes which would make the flight to Karachi another day. “

This would have occurred on/about 22 or 23 Aug 1942. Damage to the plane was not discussed, but the plane was left behind at Aden.

Also from the interview with S/Sgt Lee, “The fourth plane to take off that day, arrived at Karachi after dark. As briefed there was no radio communication. Some runway lights on, but only one string of them. During his approach the pilot lined up to the side of the lights, the side away from the runway as it turned out. The wheels of the plane hit an embankment. However, the impact pushed the plane up, rather than pulling it down, and they were able to climb away. They then made their way back around, and with the pilot lining up on the other side of the lights and they landed safely, although the undercarriage was severely damaged.”
Certainly this plane would have been delayed in going on. S/Sgt Lee couldn’t remember the pilot’s or engineers names nor the plane number.

Another plane which was delayed, serial unknown -- S/Sgt David George related, "One airplane had been unable to find Kano, and the pilot had to land it in a clearing in the bush. The crew was able to contact British troops, and to get a tail wheel yoke replacement for the one damaged during the landing. However, by the time the plane was again serviceable the rainy season was upon them. The hard packed earth was now a muddy quagmire, and would remain so for months. The pilot and crew chief were directed to leave the plane and make their way to India."

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (Alex Smart)

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:18:14 GMT

Hello Tony,
Your reply came in before I had chance to edit my post again :)
Vaneslow's death , ABMC has 19th as per the two RCAF men.
All I know of the two RCAF men is that they were both Pilot Officers, so would not expect them to be ground maintenance men .
The FH serial numbered a/c noted above FH387, FH450 both recorded as "To China 25-5-43".
But FH442 is recorded as "To RNZAF as NZ2090" but this is incorrect FH441 was NZ2090.
In any case it looks as if these three a/c did not reach China until May 43.
We are searching for 19th August 42.
Alex

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (tonystro)

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 14:46:14 GMT

Alex Smart
...........
Not
The airmen were: 2Lt. William S. Vanselow, S/Sgt Jack W. Powers
Their aircraft was: 41-23593 (BW731) crashed on take off from Kano, Nigeria for Khartoum on 29 Jul 42.
As you can see the dates differ and two different aircraft .
BUT ABMC has 19th August 42 for Vanselow ? the same date as Bent and Wyman.
ALSO
Just to confirm serial numbers, you stated in an earlier post that you had received photocopies of orders on 24 a/c which reached Khartoum. Serials you gave were:
1st Flight: 41-23249; 23254; 23284; 23587; 23288; 37243 (6a/c).
2nd Flight: 41-37188; 23248; 23248; 23590; 23282; 23594 ( 6a/c) ???2 x 23248 ???
3rd Flight: 41-37251; 23256; 23259; 23258; 23287 (5 a/c).
4th Flight: 41-23595; 23257; 23583; 23286; 23247; 23592; 23597 (7 a/c).
What was the correct serial number in place of the 2nd (typo?) 23248 in the 2nd Flight please?
Alex

1st flight - all correct; 2nd flight - should be 23242 instead if second 23248; 3rd flight - all correct, 5 planes; 4th flight - all correct, 7 planes.

I have 2Lt. Paul Von Kuster, Jr. as the pilot of 41-23593 which crashed on takeoff from Kano, Nigeria on July 29, 1942. I do not know the name of the engineer, nor if anyone else was aboard.

2Lt Vaneslow would have departed Kano and arrived at Khartoum, on/about 29-30-31 July 1942. I am beginning to think that S/Sgt Bert Lee's memory may be incorrect as to when the crash at Khartoum occurred; not during arrival from Kano in the last days of July which he related, but following the replacement of an engine, in mid-Aug. With 41-23592 assigned to Vaneslow on the orders mentioned above, if it was the one needing the engine change, as reported by S/Sgt David George, and then crashed during maintenance test flight, this would have occurred 14-21 days after arrival at Khartoum. So, sometime between 13 and 20 August. Thus the 18th is a plausible date for Vaneslow's death aboard 23592.

At the time, it was somewhat common for maintenance men who performed an engine change to be aboard during the test flight. Is it known if the RCAF men were aircraft maintenance people?

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (Alex Smart)

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 13:32:44 GMT

Hello Tony,
The airmen were : P/O Elroy Fenwick Bent RCAF and P/O Peter Hersey Wyman RCAF.
both killed when a USAAF aircraft they were on crashed 19-8-1942 at Wadi Sedina. Both airmen buried Khartoum War Cemetery, Sudan,
The aircraft was: 41-23592 (BW730) [confirmed from official documents by relation of Bent]
Not
The airmen were: 2Lt. William S. Vanselow, S/Sgt Jack W. Powers
Their aircraft was: 41-23593 (BW731) crashed on take off from Kano, Nigeria for Khartoum on 29 Jul 42.
As you can see the dates differ and two different aircraft .
BUT ABMC has 19th August 42 for Vanselow ? the same date as Bent and Wyman.
ALSO
Just to confirm serial numbers, you stated in an earlier post that you had received photocopies of orders on 24 a/c which reached Khartoum. Serials you gave were:
1st Flight: 41-23249; 23254; 23284; 23587; 23288; 37243 (6a/c).
2nd Flight: 41-37188; 23248; 23248; 23590; 23282; 23594 ( 6a/c) ???2 x 23248 ???
3rd Flight: 41-37251; 23256; 23259; 23258; 23287 (5 a/c).
4th Flight: 41-23595; 23257; 23583; 23286; 23247; 23592; 23597 (7 a/c).
What was the correct serial number in place of the 2nd (typo?) 23248 in the 2nd Flight please?
Further,
details in the other thread on these "Hudsons for China" I see that you say all but one crash was due to ground loops, again 41-23248 is in that list as is 41-23590, both in the 2nd Flight so they must have both been repaired and returned to service, While also in the 2nd Flight, 41-23282 is noted as lost in an accident in INDIA (almost made it).
Those with the 37### serials ( 41-37188; 37243; 37251) were not in the BW serial range but were in the "FH" serial range, they were FH387; FH442; FH450.

Alex

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (tonystro)

Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:50:36 GMT

Alex Smart
Hello Tony,
Thanks for the work and info.
Can you please let me have the details on a/c 41-23592 ?
2Lt. William S. Vanselow, S/Sgt Jack W. Powers were killed.
It could be that those I was looking at may have only been passengers and not crew ?
Thanks
Alex

Keep in mind that these planes were wearing Chinese markings and were being ferried to the Chinese Air Force. The pilots and engineers were to deliver the planes, provide some transition training to the Chinese and then report to 10th Air Force Headquarters for reassignment within CBI. Some detailed accident report may exist in Ferry Command files or in the files USA Middle East Air Force, but I haven't yet acquired one.

I have a photocopy of "HQ United States Army Middle East Air Force, Wadi Seidna, Khartoum, Angle Egyptian Sudan Operations Order Number 1, dated July 31 1942" (referencing " authority contained in secret wire GILCHRIST, Cairo 1745, dated July 29, 1942") which orders the surviving 24 planes and crews to proceed on/about August 1, 1942 to Chungking, Republic of China, or to such other city or cities as many be necessary to complete delivery of certain aircraft to the Chinese Air Force. The orders show Vaneslow and Powers as the crew on 41-23592; fourth plane in fourth flight.

S/Sgt Bert Lee told of the crash of an A-29 on approach to Khartoun (as mentioned in previous post) and guarding the remains through the night. (date not remembered) Surviving Project pilots L.G. Brown and John Amman have both assured me "Vaneslow was the pilot of the A-29 which crashed at Khartoum."

None of the men I have interview have indicated any non-American passengers on any of the aircraft involved in 'Dawson Project", and the only non-project personnel were Ferry Command navigators on flight leader planes from Morrison Field to Roberts Field. Some planes did carry extra men, such as chaplain, flight surgeon, 1st Sgt and crews from damaged Project aircraft which had been written off along the route.

Now for a distracting bit of information --
S/Sgt David George, Engineer on 41-23587, told me his plane left Kano for Khartoum on 29 July, the same as the other planes, but had put down in the desert 35 miles from the airfield at Gura with a dead engine. In due time, men form the Douglas Aircraft depot at Gura towed the plane, rather too fast, on dirt roads/paths to their site to perform repairs. Unfortunately, major damage had been done to the undercarriage and it would be several days before it could be repaired. S/Sgt George was ordered to remove the good engine and send it on to Khartoum where it would be placed on another A-29 with a bad engine. David learned later that the engine was placed on the plane at Khartoum, and it crashed during the 'post-maintenance test flight.'

The project planes remained at Khartoum for a approximately 12 days (31 Jul- 13 Aug?). During that time a project plane needed a test flight following an engine change.

So, some questions remain unanswered --
1) Vanselow may have crashed when arriving from Kano (as mentioned by S/Sgt Bert Lee) or during the post-maintenance test flight (mentioned by S/Sgt David George)? What was the case when Vanselow crashed? And, which plane was he flying?
2) Could the British men have been performing the post-maintenance test flight mentioned by S/Sgt David George?
3) Could it be Vaneslow and Powers were performing the "test flight" on 41-23592 and the British men were being given a lift to another base?

If we could confirm when 41-23592 crashed and when the British me were killed we might be able to clarify the situation.

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (Alex Smart)

Thu, 28 Jul 2011 12:40:08 GMT

Hello Tony,
Thanks for the work and info.
Can you please let me have the details on a/c 41-23592 ?
2Lt. William S. Vanselow, S/Sgt Jack W. Powers were killed.
It could be that those I was looking at may have only been passengers and not crew ?
Thanks
Alex

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (tonystro)

Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:54:38 GMT

Alex, and others following this thread;

I am not certain how much these are necessary to your research. I have just received photocopies of the orders for the 24 planes and crew which reached Khartoum. The orders are sending the planes, with one pilot and crew chief each, on to China, and the remaining men to Karachi. I am providing plane IDs, and can provide pilot and crew chief information if you want it.

The USAAF serial numbers are:

1st Flight; 41-23249, 41-23254, 41-23284, 41-23587, 41-23288, 41-37243

2nd Flight; 41-37188 (ground looped on take off from Aden, severely damaged/destroyed, left behind), 41-23248, 41-23248, 41-23590, 41-23282 (crew bailed out, unable to find Karachi airfield), 41-23594

3rd Flight; 41-37251, 41-23256, 41-23259, 41-23258, 41-23287

4th Flight; 41-23595, 41-23257, 41-23583, 41-23286 (last to arrive at Chengtu due to mechanical problems), 41-23247, 41-23592 (reported ly crashed prior to landing at Khartoum, 2Lt. William S. Vanselow, S/Sgt Jack W. Powers were killed), 41-23597

In addition one of these (serial unknown) went missing between India and Kunming China.

Hope this is of some value to you

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (tonystro)

Fri, 01 Jul 2011 14:36:22 GMT

Alex,

I had not previously recognized the crew you mentioned were RCAF. Based on that, I think to have been one of the Dawson Project A-29s, the plane crashing on 19 Aug 42 would have to have been one of the three stragglers which had experienced mechanical problems earlier in the route from Florida. All information I have received from men on that mission indicates the majority of Dawson 'flyable' aircraft would have passed through Khartoum by 10 Aug 42. However, three planes were several days behind and I only have confirmation that one of those made it to China (serial number unknown).

Tony

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (Alex Smart)

Fri, 01 Jul 2011 11:25:31 GMT

Hello Tony,
See the thread on these airmen here -
http://forum.armyairforces.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=179391&mpage=1#204348
All for now
Alex

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (tonystro)

Thu, 30 Jun 2011 20:27:14 GMT

Alex,

In post #8 above, you mentioned two buried in Khartoum War Cemetery. Do you have those names?

Tony

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (Alex Smart)

Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:18:04 GMT

Hello Tony,
The name of Oneselow not in CWGC list for Khartoum War Cemetery.
And cannot find any details of an American War Cemetery there and the name does not show up in the ABMC site. Nothing in enlistments in the NARA site either.
There was only one that might fit , a Donald R. Onslow, enlisted in 1941 from Portland Oregon.
note different spelling.
Alex

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (tonystro)

Wed, 29 Jun 2011 13:34:45 GMT

Alex,

I have just received an email from Loyal G. Brown, one of the Dawson Project pilots. In his email he commented "Was last pilot and plane delivered to Chengtu, China. Have Sqd pictore and list of personnel. Believe pilot buried at Kartoumn was Lt. Oneselow. Crashed after engine failure in flight."

Does the name 'Oneslow' match with the men in Khartoum cemetary?

I will continue contact with him, hopefully via telephone. Other than plane numbers, do you have any questions for which I might seek answers?

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (Alex Smart)

Sat, 18 Jun 2011 01:10:38 GMT

Hello Tony,
To start, my typo , sorry,
BW413 to BW419 (7) [ 41-2375 to 41-23281 ]
Should read as:
BW413 to BW419 (7) [ 41-23275 to 41-23281 ]
____________________________________________
And the following does show that the whole batch [ BW414 to BW419; BW421; BW661 to BW681; BW736 to BW755 ] all went to Australia, none to China.
Lockheed             RAF                USAAF                  Australia
6092                  BW413          41-23275               A16 - 163
6093                  BW414           41-23276               A16 - 164
6094                  BW415          41-23277               A16 - 165
6095                  BW416           41-23278               A16 - 166
6096                  BW417           41-23279               A16 - 167
6097                  BW418           41-23280               A16 - 168
6098                  BW419           41-23281               A16 - 169
************************************************
6100                  BW421           41-23283               A16 - 171
************************************************
6340                  BW661           41-23523               A16 - 184
6341                  BW662           41-23524               A16 - 185
6342                  BW663           41-23525               A16 - 186
6343                  BW664           41-23526               A16 - 187
6344                  BW665           41-23527               A16 - 188
6345                  BW666           41-23528               A16 - 189
6346                  BW667           41-23529               A16 - 190
6347                  BW668           41-23530               A16 - 175
6348                  BW669           41-23531               A16 - 176
6349                  BW670           41-23532               A16 - 177
6350                  BW671           41-23533               A16 - 178
6351                  BW672           41-23534               A16 - 179
6352                  BW673           41-23535               A16 - 180
6353                  BW674           41-23536               A16 - 181
6354                  BW675           41-23537               A16 - 182
6355                  BW676           41-23538               A16 - 183
6356                  BW677           41-23539               A16 - 191
6357                  BW678           41-23540               A16 - 192
6358                  BW679           41-23541               A16 - 193
6359                  BW680           41-23542               A16 - 194
6360                  BW681           41-23543               A16 - 153
***********************************************
6415                 BW736            41-23598              A16 - 154
6416                 BW737            41-23599              A16 - 155
6417                 BW738            41-23600              A16 - 156
6418                 BW739            41-23601              A16 - 157
6419                 BW740            41-23602              A16 - 158
6420                 BW741            41-23603              A16 - 159
6421                 BW742            41-23604              A16 - 160
6422                 BW743            41-23605              A16 - 161
6423                 BW744            41-23606              A16 - 162
6424                 BW745            41-23607              A16 - 170
6425                 BW746            41-23608              A16 - 172
6426                 BW747            41-23609              A16 - 173
6427                 BW748            41-23610              A16 - 174
6428                 BW749            41-23611              A16 - 221
6429                 BW750            41-23612              A16 - 215
6430                 BW751            41-23613              A16 - 211
6431                 BW752            41-23614              A16 - 210
6432                 BW753            41-23615              A16 - 213
6433                 BW754            41-23616              A16 - 208
6434                 BW755            41-23617              A16 - 216
***********************************************
Total 49 .
And to the Royal New Zealand Air Force
   Lockheed                    RAF                              USAAF                            RNZAF
6435 to 6446       BW756 to BW767       41-23618 to 41-23629      NZ2037 to NZ2048
Total 12.
So all of the above can be disregarded from the China list.
Destined for China were ( not all made it).
Lockheed                RAF                       USAAF
6064                      BW385                41-23247
6065                      BW386                 41-23248
6066                      BW387                 41-23249
6067                      BW388                 41-23250
6068                      BW389                 41-23251
6069                      BW390                 41-23252
6070                      BW391                 41-23253
6071                      BW392                 41-23254
6072                      BW393                 41-23255
6073                      BW394                41-23256
6074                      BW395                41-23257
6075                      BW396                41-23258
6076                      BW397                41-23259
6077                      BW398                41-23260
6099                      BW420                41-23282
6101                      BW422                41-23284
6103                      BW424                41-23286
6104                      BW425                41-23287
6105                      BW426                41-23288
6106                      BW427                41-23289
6107                      BW428                41-23290
6108                      BW429                41-23291
6400                      BW721                41-23583
6404                      BW725                41-23587
6405                      BW726                41-23588
6406                      BW727                41-23589
6408                      BW729                41-23591
6409                      BW730                41-23592
6410                      BW731                41-23593
6411                      BW732                41-23594
6412                      BW733                41-23595
6413                      BW734                41-23596
6414                      BW735                41-23597
All for now
ref was "ADF Serials .com" and "The Lockheed file".
Alex

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (tonystro)

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:23:03 GMT

Alex Smart
…….Can any of the others be traced to service in any squadron of the RAF or any allied force in the Middle East or perhaps India or did they indeed end up in China after all ?

If only a photo or two would appear of some of these a/c, taken while in transit it might show a) if they had turrets fitted. b) if they wore US star/bar makings or still had original RAF roundels. I would expect the RAF serial number to still be worn along perhaps with the US one.
I would not expect at this stage of their voyage to be in the CNAF colours, and expect they would be applied when in India or on arrival in China.

I have not discovered any photos, but according to the three crew chiefs I interviewed ;
a) Part of the training during their time at Lowery Field, Colorado was “gunnery training” with the Bolton-Paul turret. David George recounted an incident in which a trainee was shooting up barns and sheds until he cut electrical power to the turret.
b) The planes had Nationalist Chinese emblems painted over the USAAF markings at Morrison Field, Florida prior to starting out on the Southern Ferry Route.

However, the following serials relate to the BW serial range that were meant for China.
I have not checked them against the numbers given in the link to the earlier thread in the post above. I have checked those that went to Australia and New Zealand.
These were meant for China
BW386 to BW398 (13) [41-23248 to 41-23260 ]

-23248 Probably not Dawson Project, 21^st ABGp; Ground looped and burned at Lowry Field, 22 Apr 42.
-23250 Probable Dawson Project; Ground looped during take off and burned at March Field, 2 Apr 42.
-23251 Dawson Project; Experienced damage during landing at Lowry, 31 May 42. Pilot Simmons delivered an unknown serial number to Chengtu, and was later assigned to 491^st Bm Sq in India in Sep 42.
-23252 Dawson Project; Crashed near Pockham, Colorado during night mission 29 May 42, killing crew & trainees.
-23255 Dawson Project; Ground looped with extensive damage at Lowry, 3 Jun 42. Pilot, Nau, delivered unknown serial number to Chengtu and was assigned to 22^nd Bm Sq in India in Sep 42.
-23260 Dawson Project; Was LtCol. Neal’s plane until mechanical difficulties delayed it in leaving Lowery. Neal took different plane. Following repairs ‘60’ spun in near Lebanon, Ohio on 3 Jun42, killing all crew members.

BW413 to BW419 (7) [ 41-2375 to 41-23281 ]

Joe Baugher shows all the above reached Australia and accounts for their disposition.
-23282 Dawson Project; replacement aircraft, received at Lowry Field – Pilot Pickett couldn’t find Karachi Airfield due to weather, crew bailed out near Lakphat, India on 7 Aug 42.

BW421 (1) [41-23283 ]

-23283 Assigned to 2 Squadron RAAF, shot down 7 May 43.
-23286 Dawson Project; Moderate damage due mid-air incident on 24 Jun 42; landed at Curtis-Steinberg Airport, Illinois, flown by Robert Ruick. He reached CBI and was assigned to 491^st Bm Sq on 16 Sep 42, date Squadron was activated. Whether he flew another A-29, rode with another crew, or was transported separately is unknown.

BW725 to BW727 (3) [41-23587 to 41-23589 ]

-23588 Dawson Project; Take off ground loop and burned at Lowry Field, 22 May 42. Pilot Simmons experience landing difficulties and aircraft damage with -23351 one week later.
-23589   Dawson Project; Take off ground loop and burned at Lowry Field, 27 May 42. Pilot Amann delivered replacement, serial unknown, to Chengtu, later assigned to 22^nd Bm Sq in India in Sep.
-23491   Dawson Project; Take off ground loop and burned at Lowry Field, 2 Apr 42. Pilot Dickinson delivered replacement, serial unknown, to Chengtu, later assigned to 22^nd Bm Sq in India in Sep.
-23592 & 93   Dawson Project aircraft previously accounted for.
-23596   Dawson Project; Landing ground loop and burned at Lowry Field, 9 Apr 42. Pilot Fleming delivered replacement, serial unknown, to Chengtu, later assigned to 490^th Bm Sq in India in Sep.

In addition;
     Capt. McCarten (mentioned in Khartoum incident) grounded looped his A-29 during take off from Aden, and it burnt. He and crew chief continued on to Chengtu as passengers in LtCol. Neal’s plane.
     Two of the A-29s delivered to Chengtu (serials unknown) were destroyed in take off or landing accidents during the three weeks Lt.Col Neal and his people were conducting training for the Chinese.
      The last A-29 delivered (serial unknown) had been delayed several weeks in Africa following engine failure and emergency landing. Crew chief, David George, reported it was destroyed the next day when Chinese pilot ground looped on take off.
      Rumors reaching David George months later related that eight of the Dawson Project A-29s had survived to fly a bombing mission in Oct 1942, but by December all had been shot down, lost in weather or wrecked.

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (Alex Smart)

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:02:39 GMT

Hello Tony And Rolland,
Tony,
From the US serial numbers you give above are so close to the one that has been given to me that I can see no reason to say that it was not one of those 33 and destined for China.
Also it is fact that the US serial number is the one used and not the RAF one 41-23592 (BW730), this leads me to beleive that the a/c was under US control and not RAF. Can any of the others be traced to service in any squadron of the RAF or any allied force in the Middle East or perhaps India or did they indeed end up in China after all ?
Rolland,
As these 33 a/c were meant for China and that the a/c in question 41-23592 (BW730) was it seems was one of them. It was never taken up by the RAF or by the RCAF at all.
As you suggest the a/c may well have been redirected to a Middle East Squadron, in which case there would be record of its transfere from the USAAF to the RAF or similar middle east force somewhere ? Then again it may well have crashed after t/o on its next leg of the journey to China.

If only a photo or two would apear of some of these a/c , taken while in transit it might show a) if they had turrets fitted. b) if they wore US star/bar makings or still had original RAF roundels. I would expect the RAF serial number to still be worn along perhaps with the US one.
I would not expect at this stage of their voyage to be in the CNAF colours, and expect they would be applied when in India or on arrival in China.
However, the following serials relate to the BW serial range that were meant for China.
I have not checked them against the numbers given in the link to the earlier thread in the post above. I have checked those that went to Australia and New Zealand.
These were meant for China
BW386 to BW398 (13) [41-23248 to 41-23260 ]
BW413 to BW419 (7) [ 41-2375 to 41-23281 ]
BW421 (1) [41-23283 ]
BW725 to BW727 (3) [41-23587 to 41-23589 ]
BW729 to BW735 (7) [ 41-23591 to 41-23597 ]
BW754 (1) [ 41-23616 ]
[ BW429 (41-23291) MACR 16220 lost in the Atlantic off Ascention Isl 20th July 1942 was of the Neal Mission , 9th Ferry Group (?) - S/Sgt John Peter Brandenburg is recorded as HQ Sqdn 10th AF in ABMC ]
This would make total of 33 a/c.
41-23953 loss for 29th July 1942 - Nigeria should read as 41-23593 ( BW731 ).
41-23953 was a B24D.
All for now
Alex

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (RSwank)

Tue, 14 Jun 2011 18:10:01 GMT

Alex,

I assume you are referring to the two Canadian airmen who were killed at Khartoum in August 1942, P/O Elroy Fenwick Bent RCAF and P/O Peter Hersey Wyman RCAF. I see there have been some threads on 12oclockhigh trying to get to the “bottom” of the mystery of why they were killed at Khartoum supposedly flying an American plane (maybe one of these Hudson's) being discussed here. There does not seem to be any info on the web regarding the crash. This seems to be a case where things fell through the cracks.

I took a look at the following website:

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/photos&casualty=2273711

It has a couple of photos of Bent. In particular, the caption for the 2^nd photo is interesting. It shows Bent with two others at MEP Egypt June 1942. I think MEP is the Middle East Pool, the transit camp for incoming (and outgoing) airmen. I think this may mean that Bent was in Egypt in June 1942 awaiting assignment.

I don't think very many RAF units in Egypt were using Hudson bombers. 459 RAAF squadron was one and while 216 squadron and 267 squadron used Hudsons, those squadrons were primarily transport squadrons.

Suppose both Bent and Wyman were in the pool awaiting assignment and were give the job of going down to Khartoum, picking up one of the newly reassigned Hudson bombers and flying it to their new squadron assignment, say 459. They crash at Khartoum. Who reports this crash? They never got to their assigned squadron so nothing is reported there. The plane has just been transferred to the RAF, so no US crash report would be filed, not a US plane and not an American crew. Is the replacement pool suppose to file a crash report? The men had actually "left" the pool. This could be a scenario for “falling through the cracks”.

Re:Stilwells Mission to China and A-29 Hudsons (tonystro)

Mon, 13 Jun 2011 18:26:26 GMT

Alex Smart

Hello Rolland and Tony,
Thank you for the reminder , I thought the info had been discussed here before.
My main reason for the questions is with regard to one aircraft, BW730 (41-23592), that was the result of at least two fatalities that now rest in the Khartoum War Cemetery. Although this a/c is in some sources said to have been sent to the RCAF, others seem to suggest that it was meant to go to China. I wondered if it was one of the 33 a/c ?
And where could I find details of the accident? (not in footnote that i could see) or listed anywhere else on line.
Thanks again
Alex

Alex,

I have no information on that plane. However, 41-23593 (improperly listed in earlier thread s 41-23453), one of the Dawson Project, was destroyed in take off accident at Kano, Nigeria. Other planes in the production series (23562/23597) which I know were part of Dawson Project instead of going to RCAF are 41-23588, 41-23589, 41-23591 and 41-23596.

From my interview of Bert Lee, crew chief for Lt. Col Neal -- "At Khartoum, one of the planes coming in from Nigeria had problems during the approach. Something went wrong on their base leg, probably stalled out. In any case, they crashed on the other side of the Nile river, across from the airport. Lt.Col. Neal and Lt. McCarten rushed out to my plane, grabbing another crew chief and said, ‘Get on the airplane. We want to check that out.’ We took off in my plane and flew to the other side of the river, landing in the desert near the crash site. Once there, it was obvious that nothing could be done to help the crew. I and John Long, the other crew chief were detailed as guards, to protect the remains, human and airplane, from scavengers. There was a ‘tommy gun’ in each plane, so we had it and our side arms. Neal and McCarten opened the parachute survival kits, giving the small bottles of whiskey to stay the night and protect the crash site.”

41-23593 crashed on takeoff from Kano for Khartoum on 29 Jul 42. The plane mentioned above crashing at Khartoum should have been on the 29th or the 30th.

I hope some of my rambling is of help.