B17 Crash on Mont Blanc 1946

Re:Bizare S/N (B17MontBlanc)

Fri, 22 Jul 2011 03:21:37 GMT

We have been working over the last six months, since the first request for help from this forum, to contact the families of the crew of this aircraft. As we have learned since last year, the plane flew directly into the side of the mountain and when it shattered, the debris and crew remains were swallowed up by the two glaciers on each side of the point of impact. Ever since 1954, the artifacts have been found by hikers and climbers on Mont Blanc.

We in Italy and France will join together on September 3 and 4 of 2011 to install plaques - one on the Italian side and one on the French side of the Aiguille des Glaciers of the Mont Blanc Massif to remember this particular crew, but we are remembering and giving our respect to the thousands of U.S. military members who sacrificed their lives in order to return to us our freedom.

We hope that this small effort will keep that memory alive for all time.
Several of the family members of two of the crew will attend the ceremonies planned and we welcome anyone who would be in the area of Bourg St. Maurice in France or Courmayeur in Italy that weekend to join us.

We are launching a website dedicated to the crew and to telling the story of their last flight: http://www.b17montblanc.org/ It is an evolving project but our goal is to provide the facts that we have learned and to tell the stories of the crew. We even found a photograph of the aircraft!

We will complement the information that is on the website of Francis Raout, the Frenchman who was a member of the French Alpine Battalion which first discovered the remains on August of 1947 on the Glacier des Glaciers. Monsieur Raout, now retired, started an internet blog in 2008 and that is when the French-Italian-American connection was made. Here is a link to the first pages of the 68-plus pages on his website about the B-17: http://www.sapeurpompier-filsdefrance.com/categorie-10754455.html
We welcome you to visit the website and we welcome any comments or information. You will find our contact information under the very logical heading, “Contacts”.
Pierluigi

Re:B-17 crash Mt Blanc (H2X)

Fri, 08 Jul 2011 05:41:41 GMT

Col Hudson H Upham had previously been CO of the Carpetbaggers at Harrington and was CO of the 306th BG Thurleigh from 16/04/45 to 5/46. Would have been heavily involved with Project Casey Jones.

Re:Bizare S/N (pymcat)

Tue, 31 May 2011 09:51:36 GMT

googling uncles name came across this forum.
my uncle was L. Alfredo D. Ramirez
thank you for remembering

Re:Bizare S/N (pymcat)

Tue, 31 May 2011 09:46:49 GMT

oops

Re:Bizare S/N (pymcat)

Tue, 31 May 2011 09:43:37 GMT

oops

Re:B17 Crash on Mont Blanc 1946 (susank)

Thu, 24 Mar 2011 08:52:18 GMT

Hello Leslie
There is much to tell.
I will send you a private message.
Susank

Re:B17 Crash on Mont Blanc 1946 (sewingsailor)

Thu, 24 Mar 2011 08:25:28 GMT

Greetings! Found your message tonight as I was working on my maternal genealogy. I am a VERY distant relative of Major Cobb. I would be greatful for whatever you can share regarding your discovery and planned events for this summer. I am on active duty in the Navy, currently stationed in Seoul, Korea and don't know that I would be able to get time off to attend as the situation with nKorea is always up and down, making it hard to plan/commit to trips. And right now, of course, we are locked on with support to the people of Japan and our shipmates stationed there. But I am still very interested.
Thank you to all of you for your efforts in researching this particular crew.
-Leslie

Re: B17 Crash on Mont Blanc 1946 (bernies)

Wed, 22 Dec 2010 12:37:25 GMT

Mont Blanc is the highest mountain in the Alps and is 4810m (15, 782') high according to Wikipedia, so I still believe 5000m (16,404' according to Wolfram|Alpha, not 15,500') is prbably a typo.

Fair and Upham (susank)

Wed, 22 Dec 2010 10:41:47 GMT

I attach an article from Stars and Stripes, dated 22 Jun 1946. Col. Upham was pilot of a B-17.

Thank you for the pictures, Alex.

Dave - I can find no evidence that Ford Larimore Fair was a Jr. I have found references to a Brig. Gen. with the same name. All of the references that include biographical data for the Col. or the Brig. Gen. give the same birth/death dates as 1898/1946. Can you clarify, please?

Re:Maj.Cobb (B17MontBlanc)

Tue, 21 Dec 2010 17:27:31 GMT

Mr. Alex K

I must point out a mistake in your message about the awarding of the "Legion of honor" to Mrs. Anne Cobb.
That important decoration was presented to Mrs. Anne Cobb personally because of outstanding services of her personally given to France (not on behalf of her father) .

Will you please amend the message. Thanks

P.Duranti

(Enclosed a copy of the invitation to the awarding ceremony )

Re:B17 Crash on Mont Blanc 1946 (susank)

Mon, 20 Dec 2010 22:11:53 GMT

Hi Alex -
I see the photo that you posted on this forum of the ceremony in Eschborn for this crew and you have kindly added a few of the photos to the Find A Grave pages for the crew of this plane.

Could you possibly please upload any pictures pertaining to these men that you may have into an album on this forum to be shared with everyone?

Thank you!
Susank

Re:B17 Crash on Mont Blanc 1946 (benotforgot)

Mon, 20 Dec 2010 13:01:53 GMT

Just an FYI . . . I posted a request on my genealogy blog for assistance in this project . . . it will go out to my Twitter list as well as appear on my Facebook page . . . and there is quite a list of genealogists reading both . . . http://benotforgot.blogsp...eeded-finding-kin.html . . . I will also be contacting several known cousins of William Hilton seeking more info, photos, etc. . . . e-y'all later . . . Vickie in Texas . . .

Re:Bizare S/N (jpeters140)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 19:29:08 GMT

Alex...I was able to verify this with one of the WW II pilots.

Please keep in mind that the Boeing Company owned forerunner of the B-17 was the start of checklists for all aircraft that have since graduated into other disciplines, such as Medicine, where pratically everthing today uses checklists.
It was a time of learning the hard way at times.

Jim :-)

Re:Bizare S/N (jpeters140)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:14:36 GMT

Alex K...A little clarification for you and others....ALL pilots in WW II were assumed to be PILOTS, and as such, were often called on to fly aircraft other than what they would normally fly.
Example...if a B-24 was at one location and a crew was needed to fly the B-24 to another location, many times, the Base Operations Officer at the original base would screen any and all persons looking for a ride to another location, and select a pilot, copilot, engineer and radio operator from those wishing transportation to a base in the same direction as the aircraft was suppposed to go....the pilot might be a Navy pilot, the copilot could be a B-25 copilot, the navigator coiuld be qualified in any aircraft, and the engineer could be a Martin B-26 engneer, the radio operator could, like the navigator from any aircraft...and the Base Operations Officer could form a crew, and tell the formed aircrew, that the B-24 needed to leave in two hours, and go.

This is one reason for a lot of WW II accidents due to this practice ...(in my opinion).
( I verified this, with one of the WW II pilots).

Jim :-)

Re: B17 Crash on Mont Blanc 1946 (bernies)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:12:37 GMT

"Troop Carrier Command and European Air Transport Service are two completely different things."
True, but not in the way you mean. European Air Transport Service (P) was not part of Air Transport Command, but was a provisional unit formed by US Air Forces in Europe to control its troop carrier units (its only Transport Group, the 31st, had been transformed into the 516th Troop Carrier Group). EATS was manned by the personnel of the 51st Troop Carrier Wing, which was reduced to a paper unit. In 1946-1947, the 61st Troop Carrier Group (the 15th Troop Carrier Squadron's immediate HQ) was assigned to the paper 51st Troop Carrier Wing, but actually came under EATS.

"It would also be incongruous for a Troop Carrier Command unit which was equipped with C-47 and C-54 aircraft to have a B-17 in it's [sic] stable."
Perhaps not as a primary U/E aircraft, but no reason not to have one on hand, considering the surplus of aircraft in the theater in 1946, plus the fact that Eschborn Afld was close to EATS Hq in Wiesbaden.

"I do see in the Mauer book that 15TCS was based at Eschborn at the time of the incident. But again there is nothing in the record that puts the PLANE in the 15th TCS."
The 61st Troop Carrier Group (and its three squadrons, the 14th, 15th, and 53rd) replaced the 441st Troop Carrier Group (and its squadrons) in Sep 1946 as the only flying organizations at Eschborn. The group was supported by the 466th Air Service Group (708th Air Materiel Squadron, 884th Air Engineering Sq). There was also a Labor Supervision and a Labor Service unit at Eschborn, but most personnel in these units were not Americans. While it is possible that the folks "stationed at Eshborn" came from one of those organizations and were passengers, it seems more likely than not that the squadron had a few of its folks on board to keep an eye on the headquarters weenies flying the plane.

Oh, Arrow1, 5,000 meters is high enough to clear Mont Blanc. Typo?

Re:Bizare S/N (pathfinder504)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 12:49:51 GMT

B.
At the crash site inbetween the wreckages , the life preservers of Brig.General D.Pratt of the 82nd
Airborne killed on the early hours of the landing in Normandie in a glider accident and this
of an Airborne paratrooper Brogan Harold J were discovered along with the remains of the crew.

First of all you have REALLY got to verify your sources. General Pratt was Assistant Division Commander of the 101st Airborne in Normandy--not the 82nd.
There is nothing that I see here that associates the mae west marked "Pratt" with GENERAL Pratt.

Brogan was indeed a member of the 508th PIR of 82nd Abn, and KIA in July 1944 during the Normandy campaign. He is buried at St. Laurent sur mer.

Mae West vests were items of AAF issue--not exclusively that of Airborne troops. Discarded equipment was routinely collected after an operation and, upon inspection, was re-issued. This is likely the reason that the vest marked Brogan was found at the crash site years after his death elsewhere. It is odd though that he wrote his name on the vest, since paratroopers drew their vests from piles of like items before a mission. They didn't keep them in their lockers or dufflebags for continuous use. It would be more likely for an AIRMAN to have his vest stenciled with his name than a paratrooper.

Col. Ford L. Fair of the crash scenario was a Junior (Jr). His father was the Brigadier General. You have to be careful to differentiate between the two.

Re:B17 Crash on Mont Blanc 1946 (pathfinder504)

Sat, 18 Dec 2010 21:28:43 GMT

Alex--

Troop Carrier Command and European Air Transport Service are two completely different things. It would also be incongruous for a Troop Carrier Command unit which was equipped with C-47 and C-54 aircraft to have a B-17 in it's stable. I do see in the Mauer book that 15TCS was based at Eschborn at the time of the incident. But again there is nothing in the record that puts the PLANE in the 15th TCS. There is one page in the JAN-NOV paperwork referenced by susank that gives the unit assignments for the men aboard. That is what I quoted in my posting. None are 15th TCS or 61 TCG. It specifically says "five of the men and the plane..." assigned to Eschborn AAB in Frankfurt, Germany.

Re:B17 Crash on Mont Blanc 1946 (benotforgot)

Sat, 18 Dec 2010 17:40:24 GMT

New York Times. November 7, 1946. 8 U.S. AIRMEN MISSING. Col. F.L. Fair Among Those on Board Naples-London Plane. FRANKFORT ON THE MAIN, Germany, Nov. 6 -- The United States Army revealed tonight that the Chief of Staff of the European Air Transport service was among four officers and four enlisted men aboard a B-17 Flying Fortress now overdue five days on a flight from Naples to London. The officer was identified as Col. Ford L. Fair of Washington, D.C. Others listed as missing:

Col. Hudson H. Upham, pilot, assistant chief of staff for traffic for EATS, of Los Angeles.
Major Lawrence L. Cobb, co-pilot, executive officer traffic section EATS, of Petersburg, Va.
Lieut. Alfred D. Ramirez, navigator, of New York City.
M-Sgt. John E. Gilbert, engineer, of Frankfort, Ind.
T/Sgt. William S. Cassell, assistant radio operator, of Mount Airy, N.C.
S/Sgt. William A. Hilton, assistant engineer of San Angelo, Texas.
S/Sgt. Zolton J. Dobozich [sic], radio operator, of Butztown, Pa.

Re:B17 Crash on Mont Blanc 1946 (pathfinder504)

Sat, 18 Dec 2010 10:30:10 GMT

Curiously enough Dobovich is a rather unique name. There appear to be desendents in Jackson, NJ...particularly Carlton Z born in 1946. As a forensic historian I seldom make money bets--but I'd be willing to bet that his middle name is Zoltan after his uncle.

Re:B17 Crash on Mont Blanc 1946 (pathfinder504)

Sat, 18 Dec 2010 10:10:04 GMT

The Dobovich family hailed from Pennsylvania, but Zoltan's siblings went in two directions from there.
His brother Anton (Anthony) passed away in Burlington, NJ in 2006. His brother Stephen passed away in Henderson, NC, four months ago (Aug 2010).
It shouldn't be too difficult to find their kin, who would be nephews and nieces to Zoltan. He also had a sister, Ethel, but presuming she married, there will be a name change, and you'll have to get that from one of the surviving family. She was the youngest of the Dobovich children.
Reading the reports as translated from the French recovery teams, there was very little in the way of human remains recovered from the site. Those remains were buried in Arlington National Cemetery. The headstone lists all of the crew...but that unfortunately does not mean there are full bodies there, or that any of the recovered remains can be associated with a particular casualty.
Just as a side note, the Dobovich family was of Hungarian decent, not Russian or Polish.