Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (xl500doktor)

Sat, 09 Apr 2011 08:19:28 GMT

Hello Glen,
how wonderfully. Yes I look desperately for a picture for over 2 years. Up to now nobody could help me. Also this will please the members with those I am in the contact. I have so many documents of the Unmentionable, pictures of the crew members, I have also found many parts of the airplane. I would be so happy if I a picture could agree. Can you send me the picture by email? I also give you my address. I am so grateful to you and very happy if you to me a picture most smartly.
Thank you so much.Excuse my poor english.
Best regards
Volker
v.urbansky@t-online.de

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (glen)

Fri, 08 Apr 2011 22:04:10 GMT

Are you still looking for a photo of B-17 42-5171 Because I have a photo copy that I can send you if you still need one? Glen.

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (xl500doktor)

Fri, 08 Apr 2011 13:39:51 GMT

Here the solution for the wrong Statements on various Internet sides, many books, Accident Reports, MACR’s (Missing Air Crew Reports) about B-17
- Serial Nr. 42-5171 called”Unmentionable”!

Pilot Lt. Warren George and his crew members was awarded with greatest likely falsely /mistakenly crash location: Wiesens near Aurich in Germany, because in the Missing Air Crew Report, MACR15444 were added two aircraft identification documents from the German Air Base Jever “Test Department” page no. 110618 and 110619.

The Air Base Jever “Test Department” was responsible for the salvage/recovery of the airplane which crashed in Wiesens.
This Test Department has identified in these two sides unambiguously the 42-29631.
(But Warren George and his crew have never flown by this B-17 Serial No.!)

Here an extract from the identification documents German Air Base Jever:
I. General Data
1.) Markings: (USA-star) BO.

(BO - Identify Code of 368rd bomb squadron.)

5.) Factory number: AF 42 - 29631
6.) Admittance date: 16 Jan. 1943
7.) Downed by fighter at Wiesens (Ostfriesland) 13.40h

II.Technical Data
5.) Crew: 10 men captured (3 of them wounded)

These identification documents of the Air Base Jever were added the remaining documents of the MACR15444 in which were listening all the names of crew members of pilot Lt. Warren George. This was the mistake which later to the discrepancies has led.
((Absolutely became (evidently in the documents of the IDPF “Individual Deceased Personnel File”) also just that's why / misunderstanding later then the parents from in accordance with Warren George by the US Army 1946 informed about the death location Wiesens to here soon Warren George)
Really the A/C identification documents of the Air Base Jever would have had to be added to the MACR 15524 !!! . In this MACR are listened the crew members by B-17
Serial No. 42-29631.
This crew is according in the documents of 306 BG (mission loading lists, take off lists etc.)
Lt. Fred Gillogly has flown the 42-29631 really!
Gillogly, Whipple, Brown, Edward, Fehr, to all, Warren and Dolinka were captured in Holtrop.
Wiesens – Holtrop 1.5 miles
Baker was captured in Aurich and Jones in Wiesens.
Wiesens – Aurich 4 miles
Whipple and Fehr were delivered on account of her heavy shot injuries first to the hospital to Aurich. After they were able to transport, they were also transferred in naval military hospital Sanderbusch.
Sanderbusch is a city between Varel and Wilhelmshaven.

According to German telex aerial region command XI 19.April 1943
Pos.Nr.14.) B-17 crashed Wiesens, identification B before (US-star)
Air Base Jever salvaged.
B (BO) was the Identify-Code of 368BS of 306 BG. Of this relay belonged in accordance with pilot Lt. Fred Gillogly with his crew.
The really actual Coding by his B-17, 42-29631 was BO-A.
The whole crew from in accordance with Lt. Fred Gillogly has survived!
See also here at the documents Air Base Jever:
II.Technical Data
5.) Crew: 10men captured (3 of them wounded)

Crew members of the 42-5171 were not captured in the area of Aurich/Wiesens/Ostfriesland.!
The crew members Malin, Simmons, Parker, Thornton and Randall were captured supposedly in Bruchhausen-Vilsen.
Why in this area I cannot explain myself till this day. May be this men were captured earlier and would bring to this point.
(However, this speaks against the statement of my eyewitness Mr. Willenborg from Schwichteler near crash point which should have seen supposedly 8 parachutes in the sky.)
However, it is sure to 100% that Jack S. Amrey (tail gunner 42-5171) was definitively captured in the surroundings area near Cloppenburg approx. 3 miles by his Boeing B-17 crash place.
(Note in the report on capture of members of enemy air forces, page 110717: bailed out, probably crew member of the aircraft shot down near TENSTEDT on 17th of April, 1943, at 13:15 o'clock)
Over the place of the capture of Bevan and Mc Clenan nothing is known.
Thornton and Randall came on account of her injuries to the reserve military hospital to Hannover.
The pilot Lt. Warren George Jr. died, just as Warren A. Mac Gregor.
Both death crew members were first buried in Vechta. Everything speaks for the fact that B-17 has crashed in Tenstedt and not in Wiesens (Aurich).
Tenstedt-Vechta approx. 10 miles
Wiesens-Tenstedt approx. 56 miles
___________________________________________________________________________IIn Casualty Report U.S. Air Force to MACR 15523 there is listening:

Aircraft:             B-17 F 42-29643
Details of loss: the B-17 was severely damaged by flak during the bomb run and was unable to turn
                            after bombing. Then fighters attacked, when No.2 engine was on fire all of the crew
                            bailed out. The aircraft crashed near Visbek, 28miles SW of Bremen.

POW: Miller at Schneiderkrug,
           Teare, Shaeber, Shelleey, Spiro, Small near Cloppenburg,
           Phillips, Wade, Truscott at Ahlhorn
           Williams to the hospital at Visbek where one leg had to be amputated.

A German report states that the Germans thought that those captured near Cloppenburg were crew members of a B-17 that crashed near Tenstedt at 13.15h.
In records of German Air Force Command XI is an entry for B-17 near Tenstedt, near Schwege, SE of Cloppenburg at 13.42h. (Remark: The time can’t be right)
In MACR 15523 are first 8 reports related to B-17F 41-24459 of the 91^st BG that crashed on this day near Hassel in Germany. Then follow reports about the B-17F 42-5171.

___________________________________________________________________________

The B-17 which crashed in Tenstedt, could not be identified.
According to German air region command XI, Telex from the 19.April 1943.
(I have also this telex in copy)
Many statements and documents speak for the fact that the tail wing /fin / side rudder of the bomber was strongly damaged. I think that that's why the Serial No. could not to be identified any more. ? Perhaps the tail wing has already got lost before. Maybe the bomber already flew without or damaged tail wing on account of hit by Flak or enemy aircraft over Bremen?.
In particular there is also on the page 62 „Interrogation of Report „(PDF file 306BG.org under archive mission 17. April43) by a hand taken down comment:
„Saw one from our group – think it George-over target just before dropped bombs – FW hit stabilizer – crumpled.
Sgt.Donald Bevan the waist gunner writes in his letter to me:
(hit by flak, sheering of tail wings).
Other identification signs like example coding BG/BS (here RD- U) could not be ascertained on account of high / complete damage by 95 % -100 % presumably any more.
42-5171 from in accordance with Warren George could not be salvaged.
On account of the area state (no available way to come to wreckage, very marshy area with thick undergrowth) and that's why became according to German telex Nr.3789/4/19.43 from the Air Base Command Vechta to the Air Region Command XI, Hamburg the remaining parts of the bomber were to bring to explosive from a German Air Force shot firer /ammunition air force expert and the remaining parts were sink in the impact crater.
Telex No. 3789 (translate in English)
++ ++ A LFVA.No. 334 19.4. 1805 DGZ=
To the Air Region Command XI, I C Hamburg=
Relate to: D. (Air) 2706/07
With reference to: salvage one enemy bomber
1.-17.4.43 at 13.15h.- 2.) Tenstedt,- 3. Dayfighter 4. Boeing B-17F, Date 12.8.42, engine model Wright Cyclone.- 5. not to ascertain.-6. not to ascertain
7. not yet found.- 8. not yet found.-9. 95 % scrap metal. Airplane is equipped with exhaust gas turbines. Recovery impossible, because the airplane crashed in a very marshy area with thick undergrowth. No ways/streets exist. The remaining parts were to bring to burst from a German air force demolition expert and to sink in the impact crater. .-
= Air Base Command Vechta, Technical Administration.++

Also there is a book of Arnold Wright,
many captured officers of the lost bombers were interned in the prison camp Stalag Luft III. A man called Ewell Mc Cright has spoken with many officers and has taken down their statements which B-17 A/C Serial No. they have flown and where they have bailed out.
All three surviving officers (Parker, Malin, Simmons) from the crew from in accordance with Lt. Warren George confirmed the Serial No. 42-5171.

Pilot Lt. Fred Gillogly who was captured in Holtrop, 4 miles southeast to Aurich confirmed the Serial No. 42-29631.
(I also have these documents in copy)
From this information reveals itself that an airplane change of the occupying is to be excluded on the 17.04.43 completely and the information corresponds in the takeoff lists / mission loading list of 306BG the truth is.
Another unequivocal proof is the drawn pictures of the navigator Andrew van Simmons during his internment time.
Simmons has drawn the Serial Nr. 42-5171 on the tail rudder. Also the code No. U-( star) RD as well as the name "Unmentionable" on the front body part. RD is the coding of 423rd BS.
In accordance with Warren George and his crew belonged to 423 BS.
See mission loading lists 306BG and web on www.306BG.org

(US Newspaper “The Houston” Thursday, April 1943)

Mr. and Mrs. Warren George Sr. received a message from the War Department announcing that Lt. George Jr. was missing since April 17 and telephone conversation between parents developed that the other Texas members of the crew also were missing.
They are Lt. Warren George Jr. of Palestine and others of the Flying Fortress "Unmentionable" four of them Texans, are reported missing since the great raids over Germany last Saturday in which sixteen American bombers failed to return.
George, a graduate of Palestine High School and a former student at Texas A&M College and SHSTC, has been in action with the Eighth Air Force in Britain for nine months. He is holder of the Distinguished Flying Cross for his performance in a raid on St. Nazaire last fall in which a member of the Crew was killed, others injured. The Flying Fortress on that flight, Chennault's Pappy, was riddled by German fighter planes, but George was erudite with bringing it back safely to an air base in Britain.
___________________________________________________________________________

I have evaluated all documents which I have.
All Missing Air Crew Reports.
I have also evaluated the approximate delivery date of all lost 16,-B-17.
The Unmentionable was a new replacement and go to Thurleigh on 08.Dez. 1942

Interesting the diary of Lt. Warren George.(I have this in copy) He writes on 8.Dec.1942 we have become new airplanes and now I have a new from my own one………..

I believe the most important document was the German telex to German air region command XI, Telex from the 19.April 1943.

Interesting is the date of the B-17 which crashed in Tenstedt .The German Air Base Vechta have investigated. 12/8/42!!!!

Either one concerns a figure turner and must say really maybe 8/12/42, or it concerns, on this occasion, the actual manufactured date.
Both versions are possible.

The German Air Base Vechta was responsible to salvaged on 17.April 43 following 3 bombers:

Serial Nr. 41-24459 “Hellsapoppin” crash location-Hassel near Bassum, Germany
Serial Nr. 42-29643 “Moonbeam Queen” crash location-Visbek, Germany
Serial Nr.42-5171 “Unmentionable” crash location-Tenstedt/Schwege, Germany
(The other 13 lost B-17 were salvaged by another German Air Base Command)

However, the B-17 which crashed in Visbek can have fallen down impossibly in Tenstedt, because this Serial No. 42-29643 was a new replacement on the 13th of March, 43 to England.
42-29462 to 42-31031 approx dates of delivery 16 Dec.42 to 2 Sept.43

These can also not be the Hellsapoppin .This airplane has broken in two in the air. About that there are some documents and witness's statements.
No other airplane can have fallen in Tenstedt as the Unmentionable.
The 42-5171 was a new replacement assigned 8 Dec 42 to 306 BG in Thurleigh.

42-5050 to 42-5484 approx dates of delivery 31 Aug 42 to 11 Dec 42

__________________________________________________________________________________
Roger Freeman’s book B-17 Flying Fortress Story

42-5171-Del Tulsa 5/10/42, Presque Isle 27/11/42, Assigned 368BS/306BG Thurleigh
1/1/43, MIA Bremen 17/4/43 W/Gillogly, E/A CR? 10POW, MACR 15524
No mention of an aircraft name
(Also a little example for wrong statements, the wrong Serial No. was assigned)
__________________________________________________________________________________
If you doubt then please it says me and put to me all your questions.

Best regards
Volker Urbansky, Cloppenburg-Germany

v.urbansky@t-online.de

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (xl500doktor)

Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:19:51 GMT

Helo Larry,
thank you very much. I hope you find something.
Please try your best.
Regards
Volker

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (GREMLIN2)

Tue, 04 Jan 2011 15:16:24 GMT

Hi Volker,

I received your email today and it's great hearing from you again!
Thanks very much for that info on the 100th BG veteran. Wait until you hear what I have on him. It's a Very Small World indeed!

On the subject of this thread. I assume you already checked with the 306th BG books to see if the ship was listed in any articles in "ECHOES-Newsletters from 1975-2000" ? Also the other book with crew photos they published? I have both at home and will check as well for you.

My email to you follows!

Best Regards,
Jack

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (xl500doktor)

Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:32:55 GMT

Hello,
I know all lists, however, also them are not without mistake. Warren George has not flown the 42-29631!
He has flown for a long time 42-5171 and this airplane bears the name "Unmentionable". I have many loading list for this airplane from the 306BG.
I have a photo which the navigator Simmons in the Stalag 17 has signed. How I get the photo here opposed. I do not know it.He has signed the nr. on the Tail 42.-5171
Please, an instruction gives me.
Why does nobody believe me then if I say the documents are wrong?. It 42-29631 has flown Gillogly and he has fallen 80 km farther than Warren George. With that 42-29631 everybody has survived. With 42-5171 2 crewmember have died and near my City in Vechta first-buried also mac Gregor. Grave 162/163 in Vechta. However, I have for it many proofs I do not know like I should put here the documents. The MACR are wrong. They are exchanged together. I have the diary of Warren George, I have the IDPF, I have the takeoff lists. The tail gunner Amrey from the 42- 5171st has been arrested in my city of Cloppenburg. 7 km away from the fall place 42-5171 in Tenstedt. He belonged to the crew of Warren George. A parachute does not fly 80 km away. The B-17 of Gillogly crashed near Wiesens/Aurich a distance to my city Cloppenburg 80km also to tenstedt. All Crew members was catched in the Area of 7km to wiesens/aurich.Look at the MACR
Yesterday I have got documents from Washington-Archive. B-17 has fallen around 13:15 in a marshy area with strong undergrowth in tenstedt. A recovery is impossible because there are no streets and the rest parts of the airplane are sprinkled by a firework-maker from Air base Vechta. I know the fall place exactly and am for 2 years there in look. I have these documents here with myself home!
I know an eyewitness who has seen the firing at that time in Tenstedt. He has seen exactly 8 parachutes. Please, believes me the recordings everybody is wrong. Warren George 42-5171, 2 KIA 8POW crashed in Tenstedt. Gillogly 42-29631 crashed in Wiesens/Aurich all men were captured near Aurich, a Distance to Tenstedt 80 km.
About my email address I could also dispatch my documents. I do not know like I can put here this.You have questions about this crazy A/C ?
So, and now i search the photo from the 42-5171"Unmentionable". Please helb me. Please.!
Best regards

Volker Urbansky

v.urbansky@t-online.de

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (1stnDebt)

Mon, 20 Dec 2010 00:30:15 GMT

Same site you have listed..but this is where it begins-
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.b17database.de%2F

Mr. T

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (PA.Dutchman)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 23:19:30 GMT

I am guessing again you have this link, but I thought I should volunteer it for you.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.b17database.de/data.php%3Fblock%3D49&ei=d9gOTajmBMGs8AbkheWHDg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC0Q7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3D42-29631,B-17E%2B%2522%2BUnmentionable%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG%26prmd%3Divnsfd

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (PA.Dutchman)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 21:29:08 GMT

This site lists B-17 serial numbers by year, would it be of help if you know the year the plane was assigned to the Eighth?
http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/usafserials.html
No doubt you already have this information.
42-5171 (306th BG, 368th BS) lost Apr 17, 1943. MACR 15524

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (xl500doktor)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 19:51:52 GMT

Hello Jaap,
yes i knew and i have the movie Stalag 17 on DVD. and last year i have become a letter from Donald Bevan and i have some photos of him.
Best regards
Volker

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (airwar)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 16:30:14 GMT

Volker the phonenumber is okee,you first need the entrance code for The Netherlands.

S/Sgt.Donald James Bevan played with Edmund Trzcinski in the movie Stalag 17
made in 1953.They asked them because they were former POW's.
www.mavericktheater.com
Maybe you can order the movie.

Do you know the book: Fortresses of the Big Triangle First by Cliff Bishop
contains most serialnumbers from August 1942 to 31th March 1944.

Jaap

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (xl500doktor)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 15:36:00 GMT

On
this adress i cannot found something. I knew this web adress.
I need your complete Tel Nr. The Nr. is wrong
Volker

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (airwar)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 15:27:23 GMT

Volker go to:
www.spurensuche-owl.de

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (airwar)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 15:13:16 GMT

Volker I will send you a PM,

Jaap

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (xl500doktor)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:37:03 GMT

Hello,
thank you for the vers very good information. iI will ty to contact.
Amrey was the tail gunner and he was catched in my City Cloppenburg.
Thank you very much. It is possible to telefone with you in German?
Volker

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (airwar)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 14:18:11 GMT

Volker,this what I found :

I found parts of the MACR of Warren George Jr.B-17F, 42-29631,MACR 15444

I find also information about S/Sgt.Jack Stanley Amrey,born 9th May 1922,passed away,2nd November 2007,married with Marie Hudson Amrey,passed away in 2008. You can find information at: Find a Grave.S/Sgt.Amrey was a POW at Stalag Luft 17B.He was also a member of the ex-POW Assn.
They had a nice,Jackie Lee Jones.I have send her a private message about your quistions.So far I can see they dont have children.Jack's wife Marie had a good girlfriend named Lynda DeShields,506 North Broadway,Holdenville,OK,74848
PHONE: 405-379-5573,E-mail: lyndashairhut@hotmail.com

They had also a nephew: Marvin Charles Amrey of California.
He was good friends with Charles Eldon Randall off Wheatland,WY.

Both are buried at the Holdenville Cemetery.
So maybe Lynda has more information and photos of Jack.
Still looking for you,

Jaap

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (airwar)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 11:43:39 GMT

Gutentag Volker,

We all try to help you,but must need patience with this research.Did you contakt the 305th BG Assn.If we find the picture,nobody of this forum want money,because we all have the same drive,to find crews and other information.

kind regards / grusse ,Jaap from The Netherlands / Niederlande

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (xl500doktor)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 09:18:43 GMT

Hello.
It is to be got for me so importantly, finally, a picture of the airplane. So that I can finish my history over the airplane. I would like to send it also with pleasure to the members. I already have a lot of souvenirs and pictures of the crew members. But I still lack some.
Please, help me to find a picture from the 42- 5171.
Now I already look for 2 years.
Thank you for all.
Volker Urbansky
v.urbansky@t-online.de

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (xl500doktor)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 09:11:54 GMT

Hello,
yes i have the crew loading list!
Squadron 423rd. Bomb.Sq. (H)
A/C Number 42-5171, Take of 09:45, Missing in Combat
Pilot Warren George
Co P. Robert O. Malin
Navigator: Andrew van Simmons
Bombardier: John B. Parker
top turret: Warren A. Mac Gregor
radio operator: James H. Thornton
gunner: Donald J Bevan
ball turret George J Mc Clenan
Gunner: Charles E Randall
Tail gunner: Jack S Amrey
Please see on 306BG there you can see the mission loading list on 17.04.1943
Volker Urbansky
v.urbansky@t-online.de

Re:Search a Photo of B-17 42-5171 (cody1947)

Sun, 19 Dec 2010 07:57:56 GMT

Dos anyone have Crew Loading list?