crash

Re:crash (PhilSave)

Tue, 18 May 2010 17:40:17 GMT

The more I look at the picture and the more I doubt it is a C47
Any other evidence it was a C47?
Phil

Re:crash (peer)

Tue, 18 May 2010 16:30:39 GMT

hans den brok

Phil,

Sure would like to get in touch with your friend to find out if I made a mistake or if his information is correct.
During MG nearly 80 C-47s ended up on the continent, never to fly again.
Except for one or two, I believe to know the crash sites/areas off all those planes.
So it would be great to get the information correct. As mentioned, your friend must have his reasons to locate the plane on that spot and I'm curious about those.

Hans

Hans, A bit of toppic but I contacted you once about C-47 43-48400, an eyewitness pointed out its crash location to me last year that is different than is registered in our countyr. What I was able to find about this aircraft trough books and eyewitnesses is written here: http://www.oisterwijk-marketgarden.com/the_crash_landing_of_dakota,_43-48400_in_oisterwijk.html
peter.

Re:crash (PhilSave)

Sun, 16 May 2010 11:01:12 GMT

Hans,
The coordinates are simply in the MACR

Day 17...Month...Sept...Year...1944...Location K069835 which is VK069835

Phil

Phil in Ixelles, Belgium

Re:crash (PhilSave)

Sun, 16 May 2010 10:59:53 GMT

Hans,
The coordinates are simply in the MACR

Day 17...Month...Sept...Year...1944...Location K069835 which is VK069835

Phil

Re:crash (hans den brok)

Sun, 16 May 2010 00:40:53 GMT

Phil,

Sure would like to get in touch with your friend to find out if I made a mistake or if his information is correct.
During MG nearly 80 C-47s ended up on the continent, never to fly again.
Except for one or two, I believe to know the crash sites/areas off all those planes.
So it would be great to get the information correct. As mentioned, your friend must have his reasons to locate the plane on that spot and I'm curious about those.

Hans

Re:crash (PhilSave)

Sat, 15 May 2010 18:22:20 GMT

Hans,
Sorry,I'm wrong.981 nerver hit a german panzer.
Coordinates of the crash of 803 were given to me by a belgian researcher friend of mines, who I trust.

Phil

Re:crash (hans den brok)

Sat, 15 May 2010 07:21:38 GMT

Phil,

981 is the Pathfinder plan and it did crash at Kortijnen. But this is not the plane picture earlier in this post, the one that hit the German panzer.
The German panzer was knocked out in the Geel area. The plane that crashed against this panzer had a U on the tail.
As your link proves, 981 had an A.

I am curious about the reasons of your thinking that 803 crashed at Stelen. Did you find parts? Talked to eye witnesses?
In my earlier research I have asked for information with Belgium aviation researchers as well. And, in those days, they all came with the same list of planes and crash locations.
So I'm puzzled where the Stelen location came from.

Hans

Re:crash (PhilSave)

Sat, 15 May 2010 06:33:05 GMT

I have 803 crashed at STELEN VK069835 , 51 07 08 N 4 58 39 E
I have for sure 42-100981 crashed at Kortrijnen- Retie, near Jan Andriansen farm at 13 :32 There is a monument.
Cheers

Phil

Re:crash (hans den brok)

Sat, 15 May 2010 05:53:57 GMT

George,

The book will also be available in the USA. It will be in English. A few friends in the US are proof reading. My goal is to have it available this year. It is a hobby project. I'm working with Blurb Booksmart. You can find info on them on the internet.

Phil,
The 306th TCG plane mentioned by Luc, the one that crashed into the Jagdpanther, was the one that crashed near Geel.
803 crashed somewhere else.

As mentioned, I spent ten years of research to find the answers to the questions I had. After reading "Luchtbrug Market Garden" in the 80s (as young teenager), I had many questions. The only way to find the answered seemed to be research and I started in the end 90s. I have been able to find many of the details and to fit the puzzle pieces together. This could only be done with the help of many others. Researchers, veterans, eyewitnesses, underground helpers, reports from archives and relatives of veterans.
All these stories will be in the book. Together with lots of photos.

Hans

Re:crash (PhilSave)

Thu, 13 May 2010 18:18:48 GMT

42-93803 was hit over the Netherlands and went down in Belgium at Stelen, south of Geel
Coordinates VK069835 wich is 51° 7' 8" N - 5° 8' 39" E

Phil

Re: C-47 crash (PhilSave)

Thu, 13 May 2010 17:36:33 GMT

Hi Luc
Comment va?
The one that crashed into a knocked-out german tank is 42-100981, at Kortijnen -Retie.
It was hit by 20mm Flak and took fire.The pilot kept the plane under control in order to let the para's clean the ship. He then atempted to crash land his plane but it hit the german tank.All crew were KIA and some of the para's survived. It was pathfinder stick n°6 and the a/c was number 2.It seems that the pilot's body was never recovered from the wreck.His status is still MIA, not KIA
Greetings from Belgium
Phil

Re:crash (PhilSave)

Thu, 13 May 2010 17:19:22 GMT

42-100981 crashed at Kortijnen (Retie),Belgium on sept. 17 1944 +/- 51° 16' 44" N - 5° 2' 26" E. There is a memorial stone at the crash site.

42-108837 crashed at Bosend (Retie) on sept. 19 1944 - 303rd TCS 442nd TCG +/- 51° 15' 8" N - 5° 4' 14" E. There is also a memorial stone at the crash site.

Pictures of the memorials are at Wikipedia with explanation in Dutch language. Just type "9th Troop Carier Command pathfinder group".
Sorry, but I did not save the URL on my computer.I only have one picture

42-93803 434th TCG, 73rd TCS was hit by flak in the area of Kempkens, The Netherlands on sept. 17.
It might have crashed in Belgium but I haven't yet any evidence.

MACR for those three ships are available at www.footnote.com.

Re:crash (one1)

Wed, 12 May 2010 22:03:28 GMT

Hans,

Will your book be available in the States?

Keep us updated.

Thanks,
George

Re:crash (hans den brok)

Wed, 12 May 2010 21:18:40 GMT

Hi,

I've been researching the C-47 losses in Market Garden for ten years. If everything works out the way I want, a book about those losses will be available later THIS year.
It will provide details on the C-47s that were lost over the continent those days. Names of crewmembers, plane numbers, crash sites and about what happened to the crewmembers. The book will have many photos.

Regards,

Hans

Re:crash (PhilSave)

Fri, 07 May 2010 16:35:09 GMT

Hi, Deefeater,
I guess you are right. The C47 that crashed near Geel/Retie is 42-100981.
I found the answer over there. http://us.army.39.45.xooit.com/t2634-L-histoire-du-C-47-42-100981.htm which shows a picture of the tail and serial.
Sorry, it's in French but it says that it went down where the MACR says it did.
I still have a problem with 42-93803.It went down N of Antwerpen, may be in Belgium, may be in The Netherlands, may be on the border line. "Borderliners" are always a problem for Belgian researchers.We have too many borders with other countries!!!
I keep investigating and hope to find out whether there are two or only one C 47 crashed in Belgium on sept. 17, 1944.
Best regards from belgium.
Phil

Re:crash (PhilSave)

Fri, 07 May 2010 14:09:46 GMT

Here is what I have from Royal Army Museum in Brussels, Air dept., WWII crashes data base.
May be right, may be wrong, I don't know more!
Phil

DATE 17/09/1944
DAY Sun
LOCATION RETIE
NATIONALITY US Army Air Force
AIRCRAFT TYPE DOUGLAS C-47 DAKOTA
SERIAL 42-93803
UNIT 73 TS
CAUSE Shot down by AA
CREW FATE
CREW_A WENDLING H PIL +
CREW_B DUNWOODY P CH CREW+
CREW_C SCHROEDER COPIL+
CREW_D TURNCLIFF W NAV+
CREW_E KEEFE J R WOP

Re:crash (PhilSave)

Fri, 07 May 2010 14:09:21 GMT

Re: C-47 crash (Lucky Luke)

Tue, 04 May 2010 09:41:54 GMT

Maybe this will put you on the right track as I only have a partial answer:

date 17.09.1944
C-47A 442 TCG, 306 TCS
location: triangle of Geel, Larum & Punt (Gheel is the old spelling of this location)
circumstances: hit by flak and crash-landed, hit a knocked-out German Jagdpanther and dbf
crew: 1Lt Thomas H. Mills (pil), F/O John K. Barber (co-pil), 1Lt Olin H. Jennings (nav), S/Sgt Jessei H. Beal (crew chief)
source: book "Operation Market-Garden : Then and now"
Note: A photo from the collection of the IWM (ref. BU 921) shows an this C-47 that crash-landed into a knocked-out German Jagdpanther near Geel/Gheel on 17.9.1944. The aircraft was identified by "Operation Market-Garden : Then and now" as 42-108874 (7H-U) of the 442 TCG, 306 TCS: the code may be correct but the serial number is not as this aircraft became KG476 with the RAF

I hope this is of use to you

Best regards,

Luc

Re:crash (deefeater)

Mon, 03 May 2010 15:39:01 GMT

Matthew, your request now has enough information for further research. As the C-47 was hit by flak it was on a combat mission, then there will be a Missing Air Crew Report (MACR). You have the date and geographical location, September 17th 1944 and Geel in Belgium. A good database offering geographical location is found here, have listed URL for actual year/month:
http://www.accident-report.com/MACR/1944/m194409.html

You will find that several C-47's were lost that day, and the list says 4 went down over Belgium. Those were:

43-15098 MACR 9977 => shot down by flak, exploded on ground, position seems to be near Eindhoven according to MACR.
43-15308 MACR 10036 => MACR says it went in over Holland and dove into water.
42-93803 MACR 10710 => MACR says it was hit after returning from DZ in Holland.
42-100981 MACR 10716 =>Pathfinder; went down over Belgium according to MACR

To sum up this list, only one of the four listed went down over Belgium. We are into Operation "Market Garden" on September 17th 1944, when around 424 C-47's headed over the Channel via the Southern Route to fly around Antwerp and then north to the Eindhoven area. Before this formation six Pathfinder planes took to the air. Four Pathfinders saw the orange smoke set out at Geel which designated the front lines. One plane was hit in the left engine and gas tank and went down in flames.
42-100981 was shot down just after crossing the front line which was near Retie in Belgium which is 8 miles NE of Geel. This C-47 might be a possible candidate for your search.

Re:crash (mattford)

Mon, 03 May 2010 13:03:33 GMT

sorry i put it twice(mistake)