Info on a Pilot/Col. Langford

Re:Info on a Pilot/Col. Langford (martyjhawk)

Wed, 11 Jul 2012 10:45:39 GMT

There were missions attempted after Ploesti where they sent large numbers of heavies to attempt and hit targets at low level, but they don't necessarily show up in the official group records. A pilot I spoke with from the 99th BG said he was briefed for a mission in March of 1944 where they were to fly at minimum altitude over the Adriatic to a target. The distance to the target and hightened fuel consumption were such that they were briefed to plan on ditching on the way back. Only select crews were chosen for the mission, and although they attempted the mission several days in a row, they were turned back each time by bad weather.

A gunner from this crew also told me they attempted a mission 4 or 5 times but were tured back due to weather each time. He didn't mention the altitude they flew on the attempts, but I assume he was refering to the same attempted mission.

The official records for the 99th BG do not show any missions in March of 1944 where they turned back several attempts in a row, but the 2nd BG did attempt to go to Steyr, Austria from the 23rd to the 26th of May, 1944 but failed to reach the target each time. On April 2, 1944 four groups from the 5th Wing finally hit Steyr but that was a normal high altitude mission.

Marty

Re:Info on a Pilot/Col. Langford (RSwank)

Wed, 11 Jul 2012 06:43:40 GMT

Lt Col Willam A Lanford was the pilot on 42-102406 (MACR 4924) which was a B-17G from the 483rd BG, 817 BS flying out of Sterparone, Italy. He was shot down by flak at 12:00 on 7 May 44 over Belgarde. The mission was to bomb a particular R.R. bridge in the city. In his statement in the MACR, he says he was bombing from 20,000 feet. There were 4 survivors from the crew of 10. The ship received a direct hit by flak while just leaving the target.
There are two eyewitness statements in the MACR. One says "I saw the plane slip off and spiral down. It was in a steep dive. I saw it till just before it hit the ground. I saw two parachutes come out of either the tail or the waist."
The other statement says "I was at the right waist and saw the plane slide under us and circle. I saw a solid mass of fire in the cockpit."

In the Air Force Chronology for 7 May, is the following:
MTO - STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (15AF): 420+ B-17s and B-24s bomb targets in Rumania and Yugoslavia; the B-17s and B-24s hit marshalling yards at Bucharest, Rumania and 38 B-17s also hit a railroad bridge at Belgrade, Yugoslavia; 62 P-51s escort heavy bombers to the target and 53 provide withdrawal escort; 84 P-38s fly target cover.

Here is a little info on Sgt Beach, who was on the plane that day and was killed.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Military-History-669/2009/7/603-Bombardment-Squadron-WWII.htm
http://forum.armyairforces.com/Foggia-Italy-Air-Base-1944-m175292.aspx
Another link with a little info about this plane:
http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=225220

You can look at the old 483rd website (www.483rd.com), which you can find on the Internet Archives.
(Go to http://archive.org/index.php and enter www.483rd.com after the " http:// " prompt and select the last capture date).
The mission list is located (in the archives) at: www.483rd.com/combat2.html
The 483rd dispatched 35 planes on the mission, 3 returned early and 105 tons of bomb were dropped on the target. Only one plane was lost.

Jillian,
As regards the family "myth" of bombing at 500 feet. As a Lt Col, I would think Lanford was either the squadron or group leader for the mission, so "IF" he was flying at 500 feet so were a lot of other planes. The plane was seen to "spiral down" and chutes were seen. 4 men managed to make it to the escape hatches, parachuted out and survived. You can't do that very easily if at all from 500 feet. These chutes open by pulling the rip cord. You have to fall free from the plane before you can even pull it. For a free fall jump that is just too low.

The plane was hit just after the target but crashed about 5 miles away. A plane hit at 20,000 feet could do that, but a plane hit at 500 feet (and a mass of flames in the cockpit), probably not.

Re:Info on a Pilot/Col. Langford (Jillian)

Wed, 11 Jul 2012 05:00:49 GMT

Sorry forgot to add W.A. Lanford's mission (According to Family Myth/Story) was purportedly suppose to fly at the ridiculous height of 500 feet. I realize how stupid that sounds, but I will try to gain some information and repost when I can.

Re:Info on a Pilot/Col. Langford (Jillian)

Wed, 11 Jul 2012 04:56:25 GMT

My Uncle, William Archibald Lanford, is the "Langford" you are referring to. According to family history, he argued with his superiors over the disastrous plan to fly heavy bombers "LOW" AND he had a very good reason to disobey a direct order which actually saved men's lives. I do know he was shot down and placed in Stalag Luf III the day after the "Great Escape" where he remained a POW for approx. 18 months. In the war he may have gone as "Willy" but we all called him "Billy." He became a well respected stockbroker and mastered oil paintings signing them by his middle name "Archie" That puts his mission somewhere around March 25-26, 1944.

Re:Info on a Pilot/Col. Langford (catscrds)

Sun, 09 Aug 2009 17:38:18 GMT

That is really interesting information. Why would he have continued on with a mission that had been recalled? I am going to look for that book. Thanks for the info. I really appreciate it.

Re:Info on a Pilot/Col. Langford (KAKI3152)

Sun, 09 Aug 2009 14:46:57 GMT

Cathi.

I found this interesting because Col Langford is mentioned in a book I have, "33 Months as a POW in Stalag Luft III" by Albert P. Clark. Col. [later General] Clark was one of the first USAAF POWs.
"n... November ,Lt. Col Willy Lanford [sic] had become the third resident in our little end room in Block 138. He'd been a bomber squadron commander and was in trouble because he'd continued a mission that had been recalled . His squadron went on alone and had serious losses including him, his aircraft and his crew."

Re:Info on a Pilot/Col. Langford (Lucky Partners)

Sun, 09 Aug 2009 13:23:21 GMT
Hi Cathi,

I have no knowledge of the specific mission or pilot that you are asking about, but 'normal' covers a wide range. Yes, most missions were flown in excess of 20,000 feet. But missions at lower altitude were certainly not unheard of. The altitude was generally determined by the nature of the target and the type of bomb being delivered as well as other factors such as flak guns. But the primary objective of any mission was to deliver the bombs on target. The bombing altitude generally was not at the discretion of the individual pilot.

As an example, the famous raid on Ploesti was designed to be flown at tree top level.

Hal

Info on a Pilot/Col. Langford (catscrds)

Sun, 09 Aug 2009 13:03:10 GMT
Hi,
My question is this: Was it normal to fly at 12,050 ft when flying over a bomb target? I was under the impression that B-17s typically flew at 20-23 thousand ft? That they didn't fly low because it made them a target to flak hits?

My Uncle Fred Beach was killed while flying a mission over Belgrade, Yugo, May 7, 1944. COl. Langford choose most of his crew to fly this mission. I have now learned from a ball gunner that witnessed the plane being hit by flak and going down that Langford was flying way to low over the bomb target. I believe at about 12,050 ft. In the MACR Langford states he was at 20,000 ft when hit.

I found in another forum conversation that Langford was a part of another low formation where 2 B-17s were shot down. This was months earlier.

I don't want to point fingers or anything, just try to understand why and how this happened. If anyone can help me understand more about this and more about Langford, I would really appreciate the education.

You all have been so helpful to me and I want to thank you upfront!
Cathi