Homeless Insignia?

Re:Homeless Insignia? (skybear45)

Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:33:33 GMT

Screaming Red Ass

skybear45

Excellent Keith, can't wait for your next report.

While were on the subject of 350thFG insignia, do you happen
to know the literal translation for the 1stBrznFtrSqdn motto
'Senta a Pua'?
I've checked two Portuguese dictionary's with no luck.

Thanks,
Bob

First: Keith --
Neat document. I assume the "Whistler" was the Devilhawk equivallent to "De-NUSS-Ance"?

Bob--
I asked the same question to Luis Gabriel, who runs Sentandoapua.br. He says there is no literal translation -- it is similar to "Tally Ho!" or "Geronimo!" The closest literal translation I ever got is "To The Hunt!", but I think it is just one of those ineffable colloquialisms for which there is no single good translation (like "eat your heart out").

There are two versions of the 1 GaVCA insignia: the original one was designed on the boat en route to theatre, and did not have the flak burst. (The designer explains the symbolism of all the components -- you probably know it already so I won't bore you here). After they saw combat they added the flak burst. I'm not certain if they changed it on the P-47's or just on their jackets.

3 versions of the Red Ass insignia as well: the first is the most famous and was designed by George Faltum, and is I would say the "official" version.
While the Devilhawk and Goofy seemed to go on the planes as designed, when the Screaming Red Ass went on the planes the Ass changed significantly: it was less of a profile and more of a hindquarters shot, different ears, more muscular, more expressive face -- possibly because the it was painted by a different member, Ted Gurney.
Ted Later changed it again -- same Donkey, but this time with 4 lightning bolts. Unlike the second version, the bolts and clouds were all contained within the blue circle.

Tom,

I appreciate the background on the insignia variations. I've often pondered just why there
was such a marked difference between the two images, thanks for clearing this up for me.

Bob

Re:Homeless Insignia? (skybear45)

Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:29:17 GMT

Little Vic II

By the way, I came across a leather squadron patch for sale in the Whistle it said it can be had for $3.50. Beats e-bay eh?

Keith,

Place an order for about a hundred of those patches for me. At those prices we could all retire early on the re-sale.

Seriously though, thanks for the feedback on the motto issue. This goes a long way towards explaining why I had
no luck going the dictionary route. I think I'll just side step this issue in my text.

Thanks again,
Bob

Re:Homeless Insignia? (Little Vic II)

Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:05:30 GMT

By the way, I came across a leather squadron patch for sale in the Whistle it said it can be had for $3.50. Beats e-bay eh?

Re:Homeless Insignia? (Little Vic II)

Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:57:23 GMT

Tom, Bob,
I have a similar story on the Senta a Pua. Literally it doesn't translate very well. Here is a good explanation:
The war cry "Senta a Pua!" was a suggestion from Ten.-Av. Rui who hadheard it several times from Cap.-Av. Firmino Alves de Araujo whileserving at Salvador Air Base; it was used by the latter on hissubordinates, inviting them to do their tasks at once and quickly. Itbecame the Brazilian equivalent of the British "Tally-Ho" and theFrench "À la Chasse!". It roughly translates to something like "Drillit Deep".
The documentary "Senta A Pua" translates it as "Hit 'em Hard". I have also heard it translated figuratively as "By the Seat of your Pants". Today, I believe it has much more of a sexual connotation, although it may have had the same then as well. My young Brazilian friends know the expression of old but use it more as a love cry than a war cry.

As regards the "Whistle" it is the squadron's news rag which was posted on a bulletin board as often as was possible to write it. The author was Edward "Moon" McCann, the same author of "Lights are Bright, Sir" and "Thunder over Bowxtown".

Do you have any copies of the "De-NUSS-Ance" Tom.

I did come across some very interesting entries as regards documents for history sake in the Whistle recently which suggests there is a lot more paperwork to be found out there. At least this is my hope.

Keith

Re:Homeless Insignia? (Screaming Red Ass)

Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:24:06 GMT

skybear45

Excellent Keith, can't wait for your next report.

While were on the subject of 350thFG insignia, do you happen
to know the literal translation for the 1stBrznFtrSqdn motto
'Senta a Pua'?
I've checked two Portuguese dictionary's with no luck.

Thanks,
Bob

First: Keith --
Neat document. I assume the "Whistler" was the Devilhawk equivallent to "De-NUSS-Ance"?

Bob--
I asked the same question to Luis Gabriel, who runs Sentandoapua.br. He says there is no literal translation -- it is similar to "Tally Ho!" or "Geronimo!" The closest literal translation I ever got is "To The Hunt!", but I think it is just one of those ineffable colloquialisms for which there is no single good translation (like "eat your heart out").

There are two versions of the 1 GaVCA insignia: the original one was designed on the boat en route to theatre, and did not have the flak burst. (The designer explains the symbolism of all the components -- you probably know it already so I won't bore you here). After they saw combat they added the flak burst. I'm not certain if they changed it on the P-47's or just on their jackets.

3 versions of the Red Ass insignia as well: the first is the most famous and was designed by George Faltum, and is I would say the "official" version.
While the Devilhawk and Goofy seemed to go on the planes as designed, when the Screaming Red Ass went on the planes the Ass changed significantly: it was less of a profile and more of a hindquarters shot, different ears, more muscular, more expressive face -- possibly because the it was painted by a different member, Ted Gurney.
Ted Later changed it again -- same Donkey, but this time with 4 lightning bolts. Unlike the second version, the bolts and clouds were all contained within the blue circle.

Re:Homeless Insignia? (Screaming Red Ass)

Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:43:57 GMT

Little Vic II

Tom,
We might as well add a 347th P-39 with insignia to the mix eh?

Why not indeed? Wish there was a hi-res photo of this one. First known use of the SRA insignia on a plane, and it looks a little different from the versions that followed: I don't see the lightning bolts or cloud, both of which normally extended outsidfe the parameters of the circle, the ass looks a bit smaller and is facing backward -- that is, on every other aircraft I've seen, the ass is facing forward, not kicking forward (except 7A8 "Lillian"). Looks like ar arc of script behind the ass?

I would assume the large letter A is a happy accident, simply the buzz code for this P-39? Bob Shifflet says Pops Grable had a lot of hours in this one.

Those look like 1000 lb. bombs -- took some guts to load those on a little P-39 and fly 150 miles over the sea to your target and back. Bet one eye never left the fuel guage.

Re:Homeless Insignia? (skybear45)

Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:32:35 GMT

Excellent Keith, can't wait for your next report.

While were on the subject of 350thFG insignia, do you happen
to know the literal translation for the 1stBrznFtrSqdn motto
'Senta a Pua'?
I've checked two Portuguese dictionary's with no luck.

Thanks,
Bob

Re:Homeless Insignia? (Little Vic II)

Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:46:41 GMT

The page you see is dated 12/May/45. More info later.
Keith

Re:Homeless Insignia? (skybear45)

Mon, 11 Aug 2008 10:57:29 GMT

Little Vic II

Here are some interesting images if I can figure out how to load themso they are readable. First, An excerpt from the 345th "Whistle"Specifically asking the same question about the 350th insignia we areasking - but back in the day. I randomly was sending a friend some images ofresources such as the DORS, Whistle, Diaries etc and happened to flipto this page.
I would repost pictures of the original patch and folks wearing thembut you all have my website. Just link to 350th patches. Eventually, Iwill post only the original patches in one section with close ups ofthose on jackets. It gets confusing when we look at the reproductions.If you see them enough times you start to think they are the originals.I hope you find this letter to the editor interesting.
Keith

Great material Keith!

Could you give us any additional background
on this newsletter, i.e., dates, etc?

Bob

Re:Homeless Insignia? (Little Vic II)

Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:37:09 GMT

Tom,
We might as well add a 347th P-39 with insignia to the mix eh?

Re:Homeless Insignia? (Little Vic II)

Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:19:07 GMT

Here is an interesting image. An excerpt from the 345th "Whistle" Specifically asking the same question about the 350th insignia we are asking - but back in the day. I was sending a friend some images of resources such as the DORS, Whistle, Diaries etc and happened to flip to this page.
I would repost pictures of the original patch and folks wearing them but you all have my website. Just link to 350th patches. Eventually, I will post only the original patches in one section with close ups of those on jackets. It gets confusing when we look at the reproductions. If you see them enough times you start to think they are the originals. I hope you find this letter to the editor interesting.
Keith

Re:Homeless Insignia? (skybear45)

Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:26:09 GMT

Kasserine Kid

Okay, home from Hopi rez. I also have a pic of a 346th FS skull patch on an A2 Jacket in Italy, but someone sent it to me, so may be one of the above. Lost Hugh Dow's pics with the 346th skull patch on his jacket in a hard drive crash a while back.

Here's a pic of the replica 346th FS skull patch that was designed from an original hand sewn in Sicily.

The other patch is made from the 350th FG logo in the book on the 350th FG. Apparently no actual 350th patch was made during the war.

Ron

Ron,

Hope you didn't rush home on our account but
thanks for taking the time to post these images.
Thanks also for the input on this matter.

Bob

Re:Homeless Insignia? (skybear45)

Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:21:08 GMT

Tom,

I've still trying to locate that 'empirical' evidence I talked about earlier.
All I have for certain are two distinct arguments. The first is that this design
is of post war origin, the other maintains that this insignia was in fact designed
in early 1945 and submitted through all the proper chanells for official approval.
The approval process at that time was between six to nine months. As you
know the 350thFG returned to the U.S. and was deactivated in November 1945.
This 'could' account for this design never finishing the approval process, or it
could have been bounced back to Group for revision but by the time it arrived
there was nobody home.

I'm still trying to resolve this one (and others) via the official snail mail
institutions, in hopes of finally locating a paper trail on this insignia. If I get
anything concrete back I'll be sure to let you know.

Bob

Re:Homeless Insignia? (Screaming Red Ass)

Sun, 10 Aug 2008 18:39:13 GMT

Kasserine Kid

The other patch is made from the 350th FG logo in the book on the 350th FG. Apparently no actual 350th patch was made during the war.
Ron

Has anyone seen any wartime use of the 350th insignia? The only period use I've ever seen is in the 350th FG book.

Re:Homeless Insignia? (Kasserine Kid)

Sun, 10 Aug 2008 18:22:00 GMT

Okay, here's the pic I have with the 346th FG skull on an A2 jacket. Pretty sure someone on this board sent it to me. Sorry who has become buried. But it does show that emblem being used in Italy after North Africa.

Ron

Re:Homeless Insignia? (Kasserine Kid)

Sun, 10 Aug 2008 18:13:03 GMT

Okay, home from Hopi rez. I also have a pic of a 346th FS skull patch on an A2 Jacket in Italy, but someone sent it to me, so may be one of the above. Lost Hugh Dow's pics with the 346th skull patch on his jacket in a hard drive crash a while back.

Here's a pic of the replica 346th FS skull patch that was designed from an original hand sewn in Sicily.

The other patch is made from the 350th FG logo in the book on the 350th FG. Apparently no actual 350th patch was made during the war.

Ron

Re:Homeless Insignia? (skybear45)

Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:23:26 GMT

Little Vic II

Bob,
I agree with everything Tom, Ron, and Rick are saying. It is true that each squadron had two P-38s but only a few of the pilots in each actually flew them. Getting a patch designed and approved (yes, the insignias did have to go up the chain to the states and back down before they were official) doesn't make sense for the P-38 usage. And talk about a moral buster, a patch for just a few would really be divisive within the squadron. Not to mention we have photos of 346th pilots wearing the patch who did not fly the P-38.

No it is of course impossible to prove a negative.......

But we are absolutely certain that the "Celar-Letalis" is the 346th FS's patch designed for the P-39 years and was later changed to the "Goofy" patch because the Cobras were no longer applicable to the P-47s.

I am grateful that the forum exists and rumors can be stopped from spreading fairly quickly. So thanks for asking.

Keith,

This a common problem with so many AAF insignia that, for one reason or another, were never officially
approved by the Army's Board of Heraldry. A great deal of my research time always ends up confronting
the various myths and legends associated with so many of them. I used to have to wait for weeks at a time
for a response to my query's from the various research facilities around the country. Like as not, when the
response did arrive they didn't provide a satisfactory answer to my search questions anyway. I still have to
keep using them but now I'm not totally at their mercy anymore.

That's what's so great about this Forum, you get a lot of instantaneous feedback to your questions. While
the answers may not be 'empirical' in nature, they do provide a lot of invaluable insight into a subject under
study. The answers are all out there, it's just a matter of finding the right person(s) and asking the right
questions, and the AAF Forum has a lot of the right people.

Bob

Re:Homeless Insignia? (Screaming Red Ass)

Sun, 10 Aug 2008 15:11:03 GMT

Kasserine Kid

Well, I'm the guy who had that insignia recreated for the 350th FG reunion in Albuquerque a few years ago. It is the North Africa logo for the 346th FS. Nothing More. Hugh Dow helped with the recreation and another 346th pilot (sorry forgot name) in Tucson took an original (hand sewn in Sicily) over to the emblem maker to work from.
Never heard of P-38s being with any of the 350th FG units...
Ron

Good to hear from you Ron -- I was wondering when you'd show up on this thread. P-38's came after your dad left. Once the Germans were driven from Africa, the 350th was mostly responsible for hundreds of miles of coastal defense. Germans used to send high speed/hi-alt recce flights over (JU88 and the like), and the P-39's just didn't have enough umph to scramble and catch them. 2 or 3 P-38's were given to each squadron in the 350th for just this purpose -- they'd sit "alert" on the runway, and when radar detected a bogey the tower would shoot a flare. The P-38's would take off and be vectored in to the target. Most of the 347th pre-P-47 air-to-air victories were achieved by these P-38's (347th P-38 "Peggy Anne" attached).

As to the patch, "Fighter" Smith confirms that the Skull 'n' Cobra patch didn't appear on any 347th planes (even the P-38's) or jackets. Like Keith, I think this myth is busted. Raises a question I've asked before (but still don't know): was the 346th always known as the Checkerboard Squadron, or did they have another moniker in the P-39 years? In other words, were they named FOR the checkers on the P-47 tails, or were the aircraft markings finally catching up with the squadron name?

Re:Homeless Insignia? (Little Vic II)

Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:24:36 GMT

Bob,
I agree with everything Tom, Ron, and Rick are saying. It is true that each squadron had two P-38s but only a few of the pilots in each actually flew them. Getting a patch designed and approved (yes, the insignias did have to go up the chain to the states and back down before they were official) doesn't make sense for the P-38 usage. And talk about a moral buster, a patch for just a few would really be divisive within the squadron. Not to mention we have photos of 346th pilots wearing the patch who did not fly the P-38.

No it is of course impossible to prove a negative.......

But we are absolutely certain that the "Celar-Letalis" is the 346th FS's patch designed for the P-39 years and was later changed to the "Goofy" patch because the Cobras were no longer applicable to the P-47s.

I am grateful that the forum exists and rumors can be stopped from spreading fairly quickly. So thanks for asking.

Re:Homeless Insignia? (skybear45)

Sun, 10 Aug 2008 11:34:37 GMT

Looks like we're getting close to sorting this matter out once and
for all, thanks to deductive reasoning and collective experience.

Thanks to all you guys for your input, and I'll look forward to any
additional insight any of you may have concerning this insignia.

Is this Forum great or what?

Bob