USS Ranger P-40 deliveries

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (RAF_112_Sqdn)

Sat, 06 Sep 2008 12:18:52 GMT

buckeyeuk

Rob it's probably not a coincidence that as designed the "Ranger"'s complement was 2 squadrons of 36 planes ( one fighter, one scout/bomber ) plus 4 utility aircraft; your list says 72 carried for the 57FG, and there are 4 SB2U scout planes spotted with them ( ? ).
Nick

36+36=72 plus as you noted 4 utility aircraft adds up to me Nick
I will be the first to admit as yet thru my only resource ( the internet) I have not found the list of which Pilot was assigned to which plane, as has been done for the 58th FG. What I have found are the names of 71 of the 72 Pilots that flew off the Ranger.

PS for the USS Chenago, I have seen as many as 87 another source said 78 and yet another said 77 and 72, P-40s of the 33rd launched from the Chenango and ran into a thick bank of fog with one P-40 being immediately lost.

So for I have had (e-mailed to me) identity of a few of those Pilots
Rob

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (buckeyeuk)

Sat, 06 Sep 2008 12:02:33 GMT

Rob it's probably not a coincidence that as designed the "Ranger"'s complement was 2 squadrons of 36 planes ( one fighter, one scout/bomber ) plus 4 utility aircraft; your list says 72 carried for the 57FG, and there are 4 SB2U scout planes spotted with them ( ? ).
Nick

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (RAF_112_Sqdn)

Sat, 06 Sep 2008 08:31:06 GMT

Good catch on the Star and bar in the color photos John, I thinkthat alone should eliminate those from a Ranger/Africa delivery.....of course it now begs the question of where what when......

List is shaping up to look like

1st USAAF, P-40 flown of a carrier USS Wasp to Iceland.
2nd USAAF, P-40 delivery in Wartime USS Ranger (her 1st) 51FG, [color=#000000 editorid="ctl01_contentplaceholder1_ctl01_body"][canaddcustomcolors="true"][stripabsoluteimagespaths="true"][commoninternalparameters="u2tpblbhdggsrmfsc2usmcxmmupowkvodmjuunlimnh6tdbwa2fyunzjatluytjsdwn5ouvav1pozfd4me1qqxdoatg9"]Morel deflated a few days later when 10th Air Force [color=#000000 editorid="ctl01_contentplaceholder1_ctl01_body"][canaddcustomcolors="true"][stripabsoluteimagespaths="true"][commoninternalparameters="u2tpblbhdggsrmfsc2usmcxmmupowkvodmjuunlimnh6tdbwa2fyunzjatluytjsdwn5ouvav1pozfd4me1qqxdoatg9"]announced that no personnel would be returned to the ZI except for medical or extreme emergencies. On the 17th, the 26th lost its first P-40, Lt. Lucia cracked it up. It is salvageable. On the 20th a pilot from the 16th FS was in a 26th FS P-40 when it went into a dive and its pilot was killed. On the 21st, planes began arriving. These P-40s had taken off the carrier USS Ranger, off the coast of Africa, flown across Africa, the Middle Eastern countries and into Karachi. The 26th received 4, six more came in the 23rd, 2 more on the 24th and 10 more on the 27th. All P-40s were in sad condition and personnel were broken into shifts and worked around the clock. Some of the pilots from the carrier, USS Ranger, assigned to the 26th were: Lts Edward M. Nollmeyer, Charles H. Colwell, George M. Colarich, Arthur W. Cruikshank, Vernon Ellifritz, Lyle T. Boley, John F. Coonan, John Svennigsen, John L. Yantis, Jr., Horace C. Atkins and Earl C. Bishop.
3rd USAAF, P-40, USS Ranger (her 2nd) 57FG
3rd USS Cenango, 33FG
4th HMS Archer, Detachment J or Jokers
5th USAAF, P-40, USS Ranger (her 3rd), 58FG
6th USAAF, P-40 USS Ranger (her 4th), 325FG which I think is backed up in Ken Rusts book via Mikes post

This look like it to you folks as well?

Thanks one and all
Rob

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (buckeyeuk)

Sat, 06 Sep 2008 06:31:20 GMT

Richard--John it's certainly a fact that the RAF removed the red from their insignia in the Far East in about July 1943; the dark blue in the upper wing cockade tended to merge with the camouflage leaving a red disc . Their original solution was a blue disc with white centre ( as per the RAAF ) but this was found too conspicuous so the white was changed to a simple mix of blue-white similar to Azure Blue; these came to be known as " SEAC markings ".
Similarly fin stripes were light/dark blue.
The blue-white cockades were to be in line with the AAF white star on a blue disc but in the event they were also revising their insignia at this time.
As you say the US, RAF,Italian and German national insignia ( also the Japanese when it had a white border) all tended to appear as a white dot at a distance, hence the addition of bars. For the same reason the RAF reduced the white in theirs from mid-1942.
Incidentally the upper wing insignia on USN planes was usually a mix of white and light grey and often had no "borders".

Nick

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (whiteman h)

Fri, 05 Sep 2008 16:28:06 GMT

i was too hasty in typing in my suggestion that everyone look at the national insignia on the p-40's in the two color photos ( i omitted-- color photos) . the national insignia has the june 28,1943 mandated white retangles on either side of the national aircraft insignia. the last of the four p-40 deliveries of cv-4 ranger occurred on 24 february 1943. hope that helps the discussion. h.w.

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (SHAEF1944)

Fri, 05 Sep 2008 16:22:38 GMT

Ok, this is from the August 1943 issue of Navy's BuAer News. Hope the pic is large enough to read the printing. Explains the adding of the bars to the insignia.

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (Yunch)

Fri, 05 Sep 2008 16:18:01 GMT

Richard,
The story I got is in one of my books on the war in the Pacific. It took place in the early part of the war and was a shooting battle between the airforce (Navy/Army ??) and some PT boats, at some island. I dont recall the exact scenario, but the meatball confusion played a big part in it and supposedly helped lead to the National insignia change.

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (SHAEF1944)

Fri, 05 Sep 2008 15:05:38 GMT

John, I always heard the red disc was done away with because of the confusion with the Japanese meatball also. I kinda wonder if thats the whole story, because I also have read ... I think in one of the AAF Historical monographs .... that the reason the white bars were added to the insignia was that at a distance, the eye could not really discern color, only shapes. The old style insignia, being just round, might be confused at a distance with the round Japanese meatball, or the British markings. The German cross looked like a square. Adding the bars caused the eye to see a rectangle at a distance on US aircraft.
If thats the reason for the white bars being added, I dont see how the small red center could have made much difference, unless early in the war combat took place at closer ranges in the Pacific. I'll try to find where I read the above and see if it states the reason.

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (Yunch)

Fri, 05 Sep 2008 12:44:53 GMT

Richard,
Thanks for the dates. I knew the red disk was eliminated early in the war, but did not have a specific date. I have heard a couple of versions for the change, but none validated. (Veronica, OY !!)

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (SHAEF1944)

Fri, 05 Sep 2008 08:13:00 GMT

[id=tmppasteie1220623556166]February 26, 1941          An extensive modification of aircraft marking specifications introduced the following basic changes: . National Aircraft Insignia were added to both sides of the fuselage or hull and two were eliminated from the wings, leaving one on the upper left and one on the lower right. . Branch of Service marking was moved from the fuselage to the vertical fin above the Bureau Number, the figures were reduced in size and letters "U.S." omitted.

January 5, 1942       National Aircraft Insignia were returned to both right and left, upper and lower wing surfaces.

May 15, 1942       The red disc in the center of the National Aircraft Insignia and horizontal red and white rudder striping were eliminated.

November 1942           In preparation for Operaton Torch, the Allied invasion of French North Africa, an amendment to Operation Memorandum Number 9, dated Sept. 25, 1942, was published by Allied Force Headquarters. It directed that all American aircraft participatng in the invasion display a yellow circle around the national aircraft insignia on each side of the fuselage and on both lower wing surfaces.

February 1, 1943       One National Aircraft Insignia was again removed from the upper and lower wing surfaces, leaving one on the upper left and one on the lower right.

June 28, 1943          A change in the National Aircraft Insignia added White rectangles to the left and right sides of the Blue circular field to form a horizontal bar, and also added a Red border stripe around the entire design.

September 14,1943      The red border stripe was eliminated from the National Aircraft Insignia and use of Insignia Blue was ordered in its place.

Dates are when these changes were ordered, but remember that it was sometimes weeks or months before the planes in the field were brought into compliance.

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (Yunch)

Fri, 05 Sep 2008 06:59:39 GMT

Hal,
Are you refering to the design or location? of the insignia. If the design, I dont know when it was changed, but it was early in the war because of the confusion with the "meatball", I cannot attest to the validity for the reason.
If you are refering to location;

On Jan.5,1942; Change in regulations, covering the display of National insignia on aircraft returned the star to the upper right and lower left wing surfaces.

On Feb.1,1943; Regulation changed again to remove the National Insignia from those on the upper right and lower left wings.

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (whiteman h)

Fri, 05 Sep 2008 00:08:57 GMT

look, i hate to be picky,but look at the national insignia on the top side of the p-40 wings. that is a later in the war national marking. you guys that are more expert that i can date the changes in use of national insignia designs to the year and month. this delivery whenever it occured was not in 1942 or 1943.

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (Yunch)

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 17:56:45 GMT

Rob,
After my reply about the Bogues being Sub chasers only, I thought I better do a photo check about the star on Navy planes. One star on fighters and PB4Ys left topside of wing. havent found photo of bottom side yet, other then your attachment. A big WAG on my part is, star on top left wing and star on bottom right wing.
Nick, thanks for the heads up on CVEs mission in the Pacific. I keep forgeting there were two US Navies fighting two different kinds of war. There were 11 Bogue type CVEs with 5 in the Atlantic 6 in the Pacific. Most CVEs were of the Casablanca class, slightly larger, but with a smaller complement.

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (RAF_112_Sqdn)

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 16:20:03 GMT

Using the dropped wing insignia as a criteria leaves this photo open for closer inspection exception being the color of the P-40, admittedly I am lost when it comes to Navy planes. Should there be a hint of star Insignia on both wings then?

Rob

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (buckeyeuk)

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:44:16 GMT

Rob....TBFs were replacing SB2Us on escort carriers from mid-1942; you can check the time-scale as they had 4-position wing insignia from June 1942-Feb. 1943 when top right and lower left were removed.
John...the "Wasp" was operating with the Royal Navy in 1942, then delivering Spitfires to Malta later in the year ;sunk in Pacific soon after.
Most Army aircraft were transported by the smaller "Jeep" carriers especially in the Pacific.
Nick

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (RAF_112_Sqdn)

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:15:58 GMT

buckeyeuk

The P-40Fs on deck are probably 57FG as they have overall sand uppers, the other groups were mainly 2-colour; some have the 57th's 2-digit numbers on lower cowlings.
The forward fight deck has parallel edges like "Ranger", the "Sangamon's" were angled inwards with a catapult to port. The 4 scout planes ( SB2Us ? ) with them are from VS-42, designators are on the fuselage (should have been removed by June 1942 (Midway) ) ; early in the war "Ranger" had Air Groups 41/42 aboard, then later she had AG9 ( for "Torch").
I think this may be the 2nd delivery by "Ranger" ( July 1942 ? ) when the 57th flew on to Palestine.
Martin's photos must be post-June 1943, the P-40s (probably Es or Ks ) have the revised insignia; could be a "Casablanca" or "Bogue" class CVE in the Pacific (maybe), the islands are very similar.
The yellow outline to the insignia was only for "Torch", also on Navy F4Fs and SBDs as well as Army types.

Nick

Hugh- didn't mean to step on any toes.

This post by Nick then would be spot on for the 57FG then, I will correct my picture on the 33FG information page and keep digging around the net for more on the 325FG.
Using Nicks information the CBD should have no side numbers on them if they are included in a photo.
Johns explanation of their presence on board of course makes all kinds of sense once one is exposed to it.

Thank you all, my quest continues
Rob

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (Yunch)

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:24:27 GMT

Rob,
My guess as to the TBFs were for the protection of the carrier enroute to home. Going they were in a convoy and had other protection. The Ranger was big enough to utilize the TBFs for scouting of U-Boats going to Africa and returning. Returning they may have had a DD or two. The TBFs could be loaded with depth charges or bombs, and the planes would be sent aloft to seek U-Boats in the path of the Carrier. Our CVE was the "Jeep Carrier" Crotan. It's TBFs had a few U-Boat sinkings to it's credit. The Island structure of Mikes photo does not fit the Bogue class of which there were 11 carriers. The Bogue class was built for convoy & "Hunter Killer Group" action. It was the smallest of the carriers About 495 ft. As to take off procedure, to the best of my gray brained matter knowledge, there was a numeric sequence as to who goes first,second etc. but no particular plane number. The plane next in line was pulled in by the deck crew, and it was "pot luck", that is why no personal names on Navy or Marine aircraft. You may get the Cadillac one day and the Model T the next.

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (shooshoobaby)

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:18:35 GMT

Rob -
Many Copies of 12th AF Book by Rust
on www.abebooks.com
Mike

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (shooshoobaby)

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:13:57 GMT

Rob -
The 3d P - 40 in line has a small white number on
left side , lower Cowl. Can't make it out.
Studying # 41 - 19952 - it has an NMF ring around
Cowling behind Spinner. Also a Section of NMF from
Wing Root up to Cockpit. Top half of tail is NMF.
P - 40s behind look all Camo.
Mike

RE: USS Ranger P-40 deliveries (RAF_112_Sqdn)

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 12:58:10 GMT

Thanks Mike;

Right side...no number ...Rats..then again first off would not really need a number...thinking the numbers may have been used to identify order of take off, most I have seen are on the Pilots right (in cockpit) lower engine cowl, they look "stenciled" as opposed to chaulked on.... speculation only they may not have been a permanent paint.

The flags from what I have been able to determine where applied aboard ship during the crossing so far it all fits. I have run across a reference (of course unable to lay my hands on it at the moment) that refers to 325FG plane going over with sand upper 616 color on the planes. That would still fit as many planes where camoflaged in theatre resulting in a "hazy" demarkation line between the colours ( in the case of RAF) planes.

Keeps it interesting dont it
Rob