Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (scott348)

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:57:25 GMT

Thanks for the dimensions, Andy. I will continue to research that structure along with the other buildings I've been trying to document. We'll definitely be down to tramp around, it's just a matter of freeing up the time right now.

Scott

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (coastdef)

Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:46:45 GMT

Scott,

The doors are 6 foot wide by 6.5 foot tall. Total structure is 30 foot long by 10 foot wide (roughly). Feel free to drop by some weekend and I'll give you the nickle tour.

Regards,

Andy

ORIGINAL: scott348

Andy, when you get a chance, check out how tall and wide the "doorways" on that concrete structure are. I have a feeling that it may have been the bakery judging from what I can see in the photo. Independence had something similar near a central mess/kitchen complex, but the entire thing has been demolished. From what I can discern, the bakery at these basic and advanced training fields was a VERY big operation, and the ovens may have been incorporated into this structure. The Base Histories for several of the 2AF Phase Training Bases also talks of the bakery and central meat preparation plant being co-located. I need to come back down to Frederick one of these weekends to check out your new jump plane anyway, so this little mystery is another good excuse to visit.

Scott

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (scott348)

Fri, 11 Apr 2008 01:38:49 GMT

Andy, when you get a chance, check out how tall and wide the "doorways" on that concrete structure are. I have a feeling that it may have been the bakery judging from what I can see in the photo. Independence had something similar near a central mess/kitchen complex, but the entire thing has been demolished. From what I can discern, the bakery at these basic and advanced training fields was a VERY big operation, and the ovens may have been incorporated into this structure. The Base Histories for several of the 2AF Phase Training Bases also talks of the bakery and central meat preparation plant being co-located. I need to come back down to Frederick one of these weekends to check out your new jump plane anyway, so this little mystery is another good excuse to visit.

Scott

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (walkerarmyairfield)

Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:55:20 GMT

Andy, You got me. Maybe you can get some more shots of the structures other sides or looking down into it. I don't have a clue. We still have a lot of 3 sided coal bins up here bit this does not look like one of them. Maybe Scott can come up with the answer. Phillip

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (coastdef)

Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:50:58 GMT

Since we seem to be on a roll, here is a structure that has me baffled. According to the airfield plans (and the overall size/shape of the foundation seems to confirm this), the concrete structure shown was part of/directly attached to one of the mess halls. I don't have the construction plans for the mess halls, though we do have the actual construction plans for some of the other buildings on post, so I'm baffled what this might be.

You can see the remains of the smokestack for the mess hall on the right, if that helps orient things. Any idea what this might concrete structure might have been? My only guess might be cold storage, but I have no idea why they would have built part of it in concrete.

I've also uploaded a picture showing one of the original fire hydrants, still in use next to the ramp, just for the fun of it!

Regards,

Andy

[image]local://12374/A23B5DA609694FD4A0DB2CBA06CD0EF1.JPG[/image]

[image]local://12374/80875587F68B47DC89F2C5A6181F882B.JPG[/image]

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (walkerarmyairfield)

Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:39:20 GMT

Scott, great data. I can't make out the specs in the runway lighting drawing but if therunways there are 8,000 the spacing would look about right. Seems like most were 200 -250 feet between fixtures. I don't have a scanner up and going but when I do I will send photo of one of these base and fixture that was dug out at walker. The Walker block is about 4'by5'. The owner before the current owner pulled all the wire and sold it off. These open base fixtures are great for cattle to step into that graze the base. Guess he hasn't lost any but most are open.Must be about a 8 to 10" hole. They had a two piece unit with the metal can in a seperate block of concrete that dropped into the base unit. Those portable lights ran off 120 volt. But the permanent lighting must have been the 6.6 Amp constant current voltage sytems like the ones in use today. This system has voltage as high at the end as at the source. Bright lights 8,000 feet away. In looking at my Gov sale bill for the original auction they list a figure for the underground wire that would easily light all three runways at Walker. The doug out light is on the diagonal runway. There is 80,000 plus feet of underground wire listed on the slae bill ,a great find at todays copper prices. If the wire was still there people would be out their digging for it. Thanks for the drawings and pictures. Good info Phillip

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (scott348)

Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:08:47 GMT

Phillip mentioned the replacement bulb kit that came with the temporary lighting sets. It just so happens that I have one of these kits, and the bulbs worked great when I tested them after sixty odd years of storage. Notice the odd mounting flange that secured them to the socket as he explained. The second photo is of one of the spade fuses that protected the airfield lighting circuits. The fuse box for the field lighting system at Harvard is a "Square D" product, and is very large.

[image]local://8432/C6DED375009C469B98076013877D8662.jpg[/image]

[image]local://8432/77A4DDCA741E4733AFF9A5508836C160.jpg[/image]

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (scott348)

Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:55:04 GMT

This is the complete runway lighting layout that was installed at Harvard AAF. The latest revision on this blueprint is 2-19-44. There is some speculation as to whether the entire system was always installed at each different field. Fairmont supposedly never finished the lighting on the crosswind runways according to the Post Engineer reports. At any rate, this is a lot of wire and B-2 fixtures!

Scott

[image]local://8432/44486B056858430199B59D98208476B8.jpg[/image]

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (scott348)

Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:45:13 GMT

Here is the blueprint for the in-ground mounting for the B-2 runway light assembly. This print is a copy of an original Harvard AAF blueprint.

[image]local://8432/07E32E0761224CB99A2CC814AF440769.jpg[/image]

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (walkerarmyairfield)

Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:36:01 GMT

Andy, Scott, Omega 7, Great collection of information. I can only say that the WalkerAAf and Great Bend AAf used the fixtures very much like the Figure 4 diagram. Great Bends had a 105 lumen flood light shinning up thru the lense. The current crouse hinds at Great Bend are mounted into the steel box that used the B-2s Same bolt pattern. The original wiring is still used on part of the runway. It looks like number 8 copper with lead sheath. Hope there are no copper collectors out there. Good as the day it was burried. My set of lights I used on my farm airstrip are like the ones in the portable set photo. Nebraska has the metal cones of these kits strung all over the grass runways marking the runway edges. They must have been given a bunch of cones after the war. We used the portable lights for a long time until the bulbs couldn't be found anymore. They had an unusual bulb mount that could be updated but it was better to get new style fixtures. The portable fixtures were a lot more complex than the B-2 permanent as they had lense inserts of various colors and an adjustable angle of mounting to compensate for surface problems. My spare bulbs came in a 2x4 wood block felt lined sockets to protect the bulbs. This set could be dropped by parachute and set up a landing field in hours. There are big olive drab boxes out there that held fixtures and bulbs for aerial drop as a complete package. The fixtures on your wind tee could be any combination of crouse hinds and local plummer fixtures. Cities tend to use what is laying around when it comes to airport repairs. And after 65 years anything might be out there. We actually used fruit jars for lenses at our local municipal airport for a few years. We now have the $350.00 crouse hinds fully faa approved fixtures in use now. Our Brick smoke stacks at Pratt AAF still have the red obstruction lights on them. No collectors have had the ambition to climb the old steel ladder some 65 feet up. I see an old Airway Rotating beacon sold the other day for $1565.00. The steel tower for some $800.00 more. Great for a museum collection. Those old 24 inchers are getting hard to find. what an attraction for a museum to have the Airway beacon and the 65 foot mounting tower . Thanks Phillip

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (scott348)

Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:03:00 GMT

Adrian,

Thanks for the post. The B-2 that you've depicted is what the Nebraska 2AF fields started installing during 1943/44. The temporary lighting sets were used to delineate the aprons and taxiways while the new lighting was being installed, and, at some Nebraska fields, the more permanent system was never finished. You mentioned the problem with insects and the lighting insulation. At McCook the problem was prairie dogs and gophers--they too loved to chew, and made numerous breaks in the airfield lighting wiring system, so much so that the problem was mentioned in the Post Engineer records of the Base History!

Here is another explosion-proof light fixture. This was mounted on the east wall of the Signal Supply Building at Herington, just north of the Sub-Depot hangar.

Scott

[image]local://8432/BA1AF2F2BA1045C7B2A80B2BDE3C3318.jpg[/image]

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (omega7)

Wed, 09 Apr 2008 11:58:23 GMT

PHILLIP - From a tech paper on airdrome lighting it can be surmised that the B-2 type runway marker was the semi-flush assembly (thumbnail) that was found to be vulnerable to snow plowing operations. It was later replaced by spec. AN-L-26 that housed the convex lens and mounted on the elevated "snow cone".

ANDY - If the nameplate on the "tetrahedral" indicates it to be: Wind Indicator, Type B-5, it was the standard wartime Air Corps type (36 feet long with a combined total of 35 ten watt, green and red lamps).

A bit of trivia - The portable AN-S-2 self-contained field lighting system (thumbnail) gave excellent worldwide service with the exception of its susceptibility to insects. With the early war restriction on the use of rubber, substitute cable insulations were impregnated with asphalt. Termites, in particular, found these ersatz insulations to be a delicacy and often caused outages by exposing conductors to the elements. -Adrian

[image]local://4170/5ADC347DFDEB44BFB46054E9CCF98418.jpg[/image]

[image]local://4170/2776876F586A469C8DC6E118A2F8711A.jpg[/image]

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (Yunch)

Tue, 08 Apr 2008 06:50:22 GMT

Andy,
Crouse Hinds was one of the fore runners in waterproof and explosion proof electrical lighting fixtures and conduit fittings,etc. The lighting fixure you show is not waterproof. It should have a glass screw on globe over the bulb to protect it from the elements. It appears to be a replacement of the original or a jerry rig since there is no gasket between the condulet and lighting fixture that is not a recognized waterproof fixture by the National Electrical Code. This input is based on what I can see in your photo.

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (walkerarmyairfield)

Mon, 07 Apr 2008 21:48:16 GMT

Andy, Your tetrahedron looks like the original. All of them we have up here in Kansas are of the same type as yours. There is probably a data plate on the frame or mounting that gives the manufacturer. The Crouse hinds electrical connector is also most likely from that period. The tetrahedron was cloth covered orginally. You are lucky to have the original in good condition. Some years ago the FAA in their wisdom thought we should replace these with the little orange windsocks. Some airports did and then later put these back. I would imagine your city has replaced the edge lights along the runways with the modern fixtures that stand 12 to 18 inches tall with a light at the top. If you look around in some of the old buildings there you may find the original crouse hinds runway lights. If you still have the 24 inch rotating beacon that has a green lense on one side and a clear lense on the other side, it could be an original airway beacon or a conventenial rotating beacon. Some were in use before WW2 as airway beacons that had clear lense on both sides. Crouse Hinds was and is still the foremost Airport Lighting company producing airport lighting. I have one of the crouse hinds fixtures that you photographed in my garage lighting. My car shed came from Pratt Army Airfield. It has conduit and fixtures by crouse hinds. I would venture to say that your crouse hinds could very well be the original on the wind tee. I am sure they were lighted during WW2 because the control towers operated 24 hours a day here. The Great Bend Army Airfield has numerous circuits leading to the wind tee when one goes bad they just tie into another pair of wires. You might post a photo of the rotating beacon and its tower if you can. Just a side note in looking thru my Walker Army Airfield at Victoria , Kansas files, the airfield lighting costs were $42,062.00 which was a little more than the cost of the dirt work to build the airfield. Andy keep us posted on your findings on the Airfield electrical system. Phillip

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (coastdef)

Mon, 07 Apr 2008 20:42:40 GMT

I've attached a couple of pictures of the tetrahedron at Frederick AAF; one is a wide scale view, and the other is of the lighting fixtures. They appear (at least to me) appropriate to the WWII period; can anyone comment if they are an original type or not? You can't quite see it, but they just use a regular incandescent bulb.

Regards,

Andy

[image]local://12374/4E4464B72A4F41D7919DC1949997FC07.jpg[/image]

[image]local://12374/220A59A3CAC24E528CCB6AD179EBED12.jpg[/image]

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (walkerarmyairfield)

Tue, 01 Apr 2008 10:01:46 GMT

Scott, I think the light is called a B-2 Type. They did screw into a 3 foot tall cone that made a complete fixture. I used to see the cones all along the sides of grass runways in Nebraska. The state must have bought up all there were left at the end of the war and marked the runway boundaries of the grass runways. I have a set of these lights less the bottom cones that I used on my airstrip on the farm. They worked very well as they are adaptable to various angles. Some of the ones here have have a little yellow plastic insert shaped like a half moon that slides into the little slots in the clear lense to make it colored in one on two directions. The bulbs are 1/2 diameter and about 2 inches long. With a three hole band soldered on the base of the bulb to fit into the spring loaded fixture. I remember the extra bulbs being stored in a block of wood with holes drilled for the bulbs and the hole lined with green felt. No damger of breaking the bulbs during moving them around. This whole package came in a foot locker type storage box. They had a little rubber washer in the base so that when you tightened the bottom mount they could be mounted in various angles. Great things like this were designed and built during the war. Scott thanks for sharing the picture so people see what was used.
Phillip

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (scott348)

Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:40:02 GMT

Here is my fixture:

[image]local://8432/1AB756496A484E5680BF9CABD4B2E8EF.jpg[/image]

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (scott348)

Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:31:09 GMT

I spoke earlier about the temporary taxiway/apron lighting used at the Second Air Force fields. Here are a couple of photos showing them in use and on my kitchen table. The B-29s are brand new 16th Bomb Group (VH)B-29B flyaways at Fairmont Army Air Field with one of the lights in the foreground. The cone base was painted yellow, and the lights are directional in nature as Phillip described earlier. The current day photo is of one of these lights that I was able to acquire a few years ago. I have three or four bases, a couple of good lenses, and a box of brand new bulbs dated 1943. If you look closely at the top of the lens you can see arrows pointing in the direction the light beam is most intense. I have fired up one of the original bulbs and put the lens over it, and sure enough, the light shines forward and aft in the direction of the arrows but gives little light to the sides. I believe these lenses came in red/green, blue, amber, and clear depending on their use.

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (walkerarmyairfield)

Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:13:36 GMT

Scott, I will look thru the Great Bend Newspaper this week when I am up there and see if there are any pictures of the base. They had stock car races around the triangle just after they got the base. Could be some pictures of the drag races with the tower in the background. Seems I remember someone telling me about moving that tower across the base. I will look into the local archives a little bit. I will photo the foundation.
Phillip

RE: Flight Line Power-Frederick Army Air Field (scott348)

Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:56:16 GMT

Phillip,

That is the first I have heard of a centrally located control tower at any 2AF base. I have some photos in my possession that don't show this tower during late '45/early '46. I wonder if it was built for use by the Civil Defense organization when they used GBD as a base of operations? That is a very interesting development. FYI, most of Nebraska's normal control towers were entirely constructed of wood, including the legs.

Scott