History: Willow Run Liberators

Re:History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Wed, 19 Nov 2008 19:42:58 GMT

As the winds of war blow across the Pacific, Europe, North Africa and the CBI, a late summer storm flashes above the FO WR Plant. The plant was already a beehive of activity even though the facility was continuing to struggle. This pic is from a collection of Life west coast Liberator production series.

Re:History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Wed, 12 Nov 2008 11:45:35 GMT

As is my past practice, since I make "hard copies" of this Thread for those who do not have computer access, here is a copy of a post from another Thread dealing with FO WR and ammunition for gun stations. In it, I used "on average" numbers while the "stated, total gross weight for a "factory fresh" B-24J "out-the-door" was: 4648 lbs. Here's the post:

I shall give you an answer based on stats from FO WR using "on-average" numbers from the "H" thru the "M," keeping in mind what Jim Peters has written in the previous post dealing with the B-17G. Also the "type of mission" would also play a factor, i.e., the low level Ploesti Raid of 01AU43 had additional firepower added to the B-24D's thus changing payload capacity of amunition. (There were no FO WR A/C's involved in this mission.)
BALL TURRET: 650  rounds/.50 cal gun (2) stored in containers attached to hangers outside of turret.
TAIL TURRET: 500 rounds/.50 cal gun (2) stored in bins located in aft section of fuselage.
N0SE TURRET:   700 rounds/.50 cal gun (2) stored in boxes located outside of turret on each side of nose fuselage.
TOP TURRET:   480 rounds/.50 cal (2) stored in containers supended from turret ring in front of gunner.
WAIST GUN: 700 rounds/.50 cal gun (1 @ each waist window stored in boxes along fuselage on each side.
Ammunition was fed to guns by metallic link disintegrating belts. ammunition was supplied by Frigidaire and Colt Fire Arms Co. in individual boxes. (I believe on the "AAF Tech sub-forum) there is a Thread on ammo boxes/suppliers). The boxes were basically standard @ 150 rounds/box. Again, keep in mind that these are "on average" not allowing for the "D" and "E" variants as well as for MOD's, single tunnel guns, etc. Also this obviously was "standard" (factory) issue so any additions, i.e. extra rounds were determined by mission and/or gross weight. If extra ammo was "added" at a base, then it normally was stored mid-fuselage at the waist guns. Hope this helps a bit!

Re:History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:25:15 GMT

With the housing market in such a slump in these troubled times, I reflected back on those early days at FO WR when, as the increasing work force required "living accomodations," housing projects such as "West Willow" began to spring up. Sanitation, along with basic accomodations were lacking to say the least, but Henry Ford's pay couldn't be beat for the "unskilled" work force.

Re:History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Wed, 01 Oct 2008 21:45:09 GMT

As the October autumn weather sets in here at Willow Run and school is well underway, I thought I'd post these two pics of "School Daze." The one is a group shot taken in December 1944 while the other is a close up of the "nose art." Note the recognition to the Ford Apprentice Program stenciled on the side next to the nose art.

RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Sun, 07 Sep 2008 08:57:36 GMT

As has been my past practice, I am attaching this post from another Thread for continuity purposes. Best Regards! Steven

B-24 Liberators Over YAM - 09/06/2008 10:27:20 AM On Sunday, 10AU08, under heavy and ominous skies, those attending the 2008 TOM were treated to a sight not seen in many, many decades over the Willow Run Plant and tarmac: B-24's flying in tandem. Thanks to the Colling's Foundation B-24J, the Witchcraft (named after a FO WR built B-24H), and the CAF's B-24A, Ol 927, the visitors at TOM were given a "snapshot" of history. In two of the attached pics, the B-24J is to the right and the B-24A to the left. The 3rd undated, archived pic shows B-24's queued up on the tarmac during the FO WR "hey days." Hopefully, I'll have more/better pics later! Best Regards! Steven

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RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:32:56 GMT

Al, Good evening from Ann Arbor. Here is that quote from my post of 19JU08 which I reread tonight and could see how I may have mis-represented myself. "This basically meant that from this aspect, there would be some variation depending upon the section(s) of aluminum roll from which the respective part/section of the A/C was stamped (manufactureres allow a variation)." What I should have said was that within the coils of aluminum (or steel) from which stampings for A/C's were made, specific tolerances had to be held. These would have been dictated by the designs from CO and all facilities within the "Liberator Pool" would have had to comply. I hope I have cleared myself up. I had the opportunity today at the "Thunder Over Michigan" Air Show to see th B-24A, Ol 927, "up close and personal" for the 1st time since being converted fom Diamond L'il Although still a "work-in-progress," it is looking good! Best Regards! Steven

RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (Al Blue)

Sat, 09 Aug 2008 10:14:47 GMT

This is in reply to previous messages concerning the thickness of the aluminum plating used on B-24s. The attached diagram shows where different gauges of sheeting were used. These specs would NOT be allowed to vary by manufacturer.

Al Blue

RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (buckeyeuk)

Fri, 08 Aug 2008 15:29:55 GMT

Nice one Steven what surprises me is how light the camo colours look under these lights especially the OD. I would imagine at this time it was the original Dark Olive Drab 41 rather than the later ANA colour 613 ( old stocks were supposed to be used up first ).
The attached is a facsimile of the Ministry of Aircraft Production colour chip for RAF Dark Green which was a fair match for "fresh" OD41; problem is , the smaller the sample the darker the shade appears.
Photos even colour ones can be very misleading . Thanks Nick

RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Fri, 08 Aug 2008 11:52:35 GMT

Nick, I recently came across this pic both from the Photo Gallery and in my collection showing the FO WR demarcation lines. What is interesting to note is that the bomb bay sliding doors are open thus better displaying the paint line. Best Regards! Steven

Re:History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Mon, 28 Jul 2008 20:58:01 GMT

Came across this photo tonight, and, although undated, thought it was a nice pic of FO WR Libs queued up outside of the plant. Best Regards! Steven

RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Sat, 19 Jul 2008 19:51:31 GMT

Don had posted an interesting item, and I have posted my response here as it deals, in part, with the FO WR Libs. Best Regards! Steven

quote:

ORIGINAL: donf

You may be interested in an incident involving a B-24M manufactured by Ford which was assigned to the 867th Bomb Squadron of the 494th Bomb Group. The pilot of this plane reported that its skin seemed thinner than the previous B-24 models he flew (B24 J models manufactured by Consolidated) and that the skin rattled in strong wind. The plane was also lighter than the rest of the planes in the squadron and cruising speed was higher.

Don, Can't give you too much detail on this, but will tell you what I know. On the FO WR Libs the aluminum skin thickness (spec) was from .28" to .025" on the "J" variant thru the "M." This basically meant that from this aspect, there would be some variation depending upon the section(s) of aluminum roll from which the respective part/section of the A/C was stamped (manufactureres allow a variation). I cannot speak for the CO variants. Also, paint would have an effect. FO WR discontinued the use of camouflage/OD paint mid February, 1944, on the "H" variants (don't know if this was in the mix about which you posted). Aluminum thickness, paint, number of rivets would undoubtely make a difference as well as "drag" caused by any aberration deflecting air flow, say for example, a sliding bomb bay door, torn/damaged aluminum,etc. Since his was not mentioned in the incident you reported, one would assume an undamaged A/C. This may not help, but it's a start. Also, I'd like to copy this over to my History: Willow Run B-24 Thread. Thanks! Best Regards! Steven

RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Tue, 08 Jul 2008 21:37:56 GMT

From the Iron Man Thread posted earlier today. Best Regards! Steven

In the summer movie, Iron Man, Robert Downey JR plays Tony Stark, an heir to an immensely successful "state-of-the-art" munitions corporation. What caught my eye about half way though the movie was a blownup photograph to the rear-left of his corporate office desk (as the viewer would see it) of one of a series of pics taken in December 1942 and January 1943 on th "K" Assembly Line of the B-24E at Willow Run. The actual picture is from the Henry Ford Museum Collection and also a similar one can be seen on-line in the Library of Congress Collection (link attached). It is shown several times during the end of the movie where many scenes are filmed in the office. (As an aside, on the right-rear side is a pic of a B-17G at a Boeing Plant, but I am not sure of the pic). I have attached a pic of the same "K" line within the same time frame. Also, the movie was quite enjoyable! Best Regards! Steven

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query

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RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Sun, 06 Jul 2008 20:46:43 GMT

ORIGINAL: Janos

The following; As a new century dawned, some 55 years after the fifteenth Air Force had finished it's wartime mission, US Air Force Col John M Hudson sifted through memorabila left behind by his late father, a bombadier in the 450th BG, Hudson recalled; "although he spoke very little of combat, he always extolled the virtures of the "ugly" B-24 versus the "pretty B-17.

John, Good evening from Ann Arbor! Thanks for the post, and, yes the controversy will always go on! Although aesthetically not a "work-of-art," in my mind it was beautiful! Again, not having been an aviator, I can only speak from an Historian's point of view along with having worked in a facility which "massed produced" the Lib, FO WR. I would like to attach your quote to my B-24 versus B-17 Thread as another example of a written comment. I must admit, however, that our own own YAM, B-17G Yankee Lady is a true beauty. Best Regards! Steven

RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (Yunch)

Sun, 06 Jul 2008 14:33:18 GMT

Steven,
First of all I do not extol one AAF plane over another because, not having flown in anyone of them I am not qualified to pass judgement on said plaines. I do like to pass on things that I have read about the planes from qualfied people. The following; As a new century dawned, some 55 years after the fifteenth Air Force had finished it's wartime mission, US Air Force Col John M Hudson sifted through memorabila left behind by his late father, a bombadier in the 450th BG, Hudson recalled; "although he spoke very little of combat, he always extolled the virtures of the "ugly" B-24 versus the "pretty B-17.

RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Sat, 05 Jul 2008 23:05:22 GMT

As usual, I am adding this for continuity for the Thread.

Ernie, A local nickname among FO WR folks for the Lib was Ford's folly which also was the nose art of a B-24H-1-FO, 42-7466, a picture of which I have attached. It sort of goes along with the nickname of Willow Run given to it by the media while the plant struggled to reach its intended production goals, "Willit Run." Still love her though! Best Regards! Steven

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RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Sun, 29 Jun 2008 21:20:47 GMT

This pic taken on 24SE43 shows a FO WR B-24H over a hazy Detroit as ithe A/C approaches the Detroit River. This shot from a nice angle gives a good view of the OD and demarcation line on the underbody in the paint scheme. Best Regards! Steven

[image]local://11777/E94329007564468CB908DB80C002C5CF.jpg[/image]

RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:45:09 GMT

During my tour for members of YAM and the Henry Ford Museum Transportation Curator, 12MR08, I attempted to point out some of the few vestiges of the FO WR days that still exist in the contemporary GM WR Transmission Plant today other than the physical structure itself. Here I am standing in front of a shop floor door in what would have been immediately in front of the Final Assemly, "K" line, just before the "tax turn." The old heavy wooden door has been coated with several varied colours of paint over the years, but still bears a parts' S/N as seen in the picture. Also still in existence are "fire detection pull boxes," some of which have had he "Ford Logo" ground off, but I still have one "in tact." There still remain several of the 68 overhead cranes of which three are still working, one of which was in service the day we were there. Hopefully as time goes on, what few other small remnants remain will be found. Best Regards! Steven

[image]local://11777/74B78B764C584A9AB7D4400C31381BEB.jpg[/image]

[image]local://11777/82BC393A3BF44AE6B856B37EA2B6FAB0.jpg[/image]

RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:25:52 GMT

...but do please stop helping me to be reminded that aviation is still far too often taken for granted as being a "man's" world!
"Gentlemen, This could turn out to be a long post..."
"The majority of them were manned by well trained and highly capable women who lived their work day 36' to 40' above the plant floor."

Georgia, Point taken! Human nature is "what-it-is!" No offense meant. Guess I am always "too much into the content!" Not so sure I understand the the questioning of the 3rd quote. The "plant folklore" at FO WR about the "Rosies," who did just about everything, is quite interesting! Best Regards! Steven

RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (MAJ Combs)

Fri, 13 Jun 2008 04:18:52 GMT

Steve,

You're doing such a great job with the history associated with the B-24, but do please stop helping me to be reminded that aviation is still far too often taken for granted as being a "man's" world--

"Gentlemen, This could turn out to be a long post..."

"The majority of them were manned by well trained and highly capable women who lived their work day 36' to 40' above the plant floor."

...pulling the kevlar helmet and flak jacket from out of my duffle bag now and preparing to take cover...along with a medal or two... why, yes, as a matter of fact some of them really do belong to me...the rest were my uncle's...let's see, there are also around six pair of wings in here...some of them are mine...uh, that black beret was mine...

RE: History: Willow Run Liberators (WillowRun)

Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:05:22 GMT

I've added this post from another Thread to maintain continuity with my WR Thread! Best Regards! Steven

TonyM, Phillip, Toni, Good evening from Ann Arbor! Just jumping on for a few minutes tonight and tend to agree with TonyM although my "hard evidence" is rather sketchy, at best. I believe that this A/C could be B-24E-5-FO, 42-7012 built at FO WR on the "K" Line (within block 42-6976 to 42-7464). From the pic, it is hard to tell as nothing really stands out, and a lot is blocked, but the large "buzz" number on the port side does appear to be a "012(3)," as TonyM has indicated, but which is really inconclusive since the numbers, seen on many 8th and 15th AAF A/C's, really don't mean a whole lot. Al Blue, I believe, has referred to them as "pesky numbers." They do appear on FO WR A/C's but inconsistently, and, in fact, are seen more often on "clean skin" "J's" thru "M's" more frequently than on "E's." I have found nothing in my information that either upholds or refutes this statement, but in reviewing a lot of FO WR photos, this is what I've observed. As to the original post in this Thread, I've still not located the original Site/place where I have seen the pic.