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 Death after bailout
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Dwilma01

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Death after bailout - Thursday, April 03, 2008 11:12 AM
I am just beginning to research an alleged incident where a Mustang pilot may have been killed by German civilians in 1945 (note my tentative language).
 
Did MACRs reflect such incidents? Were MACRs updated when new information came in after Victory?
 
In Wings of Morning war crimes investigators looked into the fate of the crew in the book shot down in April '45. How and where were allegations documented?
 
I am interested in confirming the incident and in particular learning the pilot's name.
David Wilma
Son of 1LT Francis R. "Dick" Wilma (1920-2005)
ATC, Chabua, India, '44 - '45
http://home.comcast.net/~davidwilma/Index.htm
drgondog

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RE: Death after bailout - Thursday, April 03, 2008 12:02 PM
Short answer - yes on the updates, when information became available. Which pilot are you researching?
Dwilma01

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RE: Death after bailout - Thursday, April 03, 2008 6:18 PM
I am trying to learn the pilot's name and a precise location. He was shot down in Saxony-Anhalt roughly in the time frame 27 Mar 45 to 12 Apr 45. The area was liberated by the 2nd Armored Division ca. 12 April.
David Wilma
Son of 1LT Francis R. "Dick" Wilma (1920-2005)
ATC, Chabua, India, '44 - '45
http://home.comcast.net/~davidwilma/Index.htm
shooshoobaby

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RE: Death after bailout - Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:10 AM
David -
Two Pilots that you should check as being Killed by Civilians.
Both in 354th FG.
Lt. Michael R. Jugan - Shot down 3/45
Lt. Lloyd E. Bates - Shot down 4/45
Mike
Dwilma01

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RE: Death after bailout - Wednesday, April 09, 2008 6:15 PM
Mike:
 
I looked these up and the MIA notatations have a pencil notation RMC - Returned to Military Control.
 
Thanks
David Wilma
Son of 1LT Francis R. "Dick" Wilma (1920-2005)
ATC, Chabua, India, '44 - '45
http://home.comcast.net/~davidwilma/Index.htm
PA.Dutchman

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Someone making a difference Death after bailout - Wednesday, April 09, 2008 8:17 PM
You might want to read this article. It concerns a German who has tried to find and locate as many of the Air Corp Pilots who were never found or bodies recovered during or after the war for whatever reason.
 
The story mentions a pilot who it is rumored was downed alive, but they believe he was clubbed to death by local Nazis. It is a well done and detailed story of compassion from the other side of War and now the world.
 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/the-bone-collectors-the-search-for-lost-heroes-of-wwii-523174.html
   
"The event will be another milestone in Uwe Benkel's remarkable part-time career. Since 1989, he and the 14 other voluntary and unpaid members of his Research Group for the Missing have recovered the remains of 80 British, American and German wartime aircraft shot down during the Second World War and recovered the bodies of 28 pilots listed as missing".
Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

Son of Tech Sgt. Raymond A. Heilman, JR.
11 TH Field Artillery 1937-1940
Schofield Barracks

7 TH AAC 11 BGH 42 Sq.1940-45
Hickam Survivor 12/7/1941
USAAC Armorer (P) 911
Presidential Unit Citation 1942
Dwilma01

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RE: Death after bailout - Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:20 AM
I found one possibility, F/O Joseph R. Coker, MACR 13954, listed as MIA but last seen after parachuting "talking to a boy about ten years of age." The location is near Plouner, Germany, but I cannot find this community.
 
Can anyone determine if F/O Coker survived?
 
Where is Plouner?
David Wilma
Son of 1LT Francis R. "Dick" Wilma (1920-2005)
ATC, Chabua, India, '44 - '45
http://home.comcast.net/~davidwilma/Index.htm
Dwilma01

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RE: Death after bailout - Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:22 AM
Can anyone help me with tracing allegations of Germans murdering downed airmen? Who investigated these allegations? Where are the records? Did U.S. authorities investigate these allegations in the Soviet zone of occupation?
David Wilma
Son of 1LT Francis R. "Dick" Wilma (1920-2005)
ATC, Chabua, India, '44 - '45
http://home.comcast.net/~davidwilma/Index.htm
PA.Dutchman

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RE: Death after bailout - Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:33 AM
This site pretty much covers all the massacres by all the armies and others during World War Two. I have singled out the most documented of those concerning the cold murdered of American POWs by the German SS.
 
The link below gives all the things done by all the armies in all the theaters of the war. Just follow the links carefully,

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html#Belgium

THE MALMÉDY MASSACRE (December 17, 1944)
 
During the Ardennes Offensive (Battle of the Bulge) the Combat Group of the 1st SS Panzer Division, led by SS Major Joachim Peiper, was approaching the crossroads at Baugnes near the town of Malmédy. There they encountered a company of US troops (Battery B of the 285th Field Artillery Observation Battalion) from the US 7th Armoured Division. Realizing that the odds were hopeless, the company's commander, Lieutenant Virgil Lary, decided to surrender. After being searched by the SS, the prisoners were marched into a field adjacent to the Cafe Bodarwé. The SS troops moved on except for two Mark IV tanks Nos. 731 and 732, left behind to guard the GIs. A couple of GIs tried to flee to the nearest woods and an order was given to fire. SS Private Georg Fleps of tank 731 drew his pistol and fired at Lary's driver who fell dead in the snow. The machine guns of both tanks then opened fire on the prisoners. Many of the GIs took to their heels and headed for the woods. Incredibly, 43 GIs survived, but 84 of their comrades lay dead in the field, being slowly covered with a blanket of snow. No attempt was made to recover the bodies until the area was retaken by the 30th Infantry Division on January 14, 1945, when men from the 291st Engineers used metal detectors to locate the bodies buried in the snow. (The US troops in the area were issued with an order that for the next week no SS prisoners were to be taken) At the end of the war, Peiper, and 73 other suspects (arrested for other atrocities committed during the offensive) were brought to trial. When the trial ended on July 16, 1946, forty three of the defendants were sentenced to death, twenty two to life imprisonment, two to twenty years, one for fifteen years and five to ten years.
 
This link will take you to the Pacific Theater, it is a proven fact that LESS American POWS survived in Japanese camps then in German camps.

 http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_pacific.html

The Japanese Unit 731 even dissected awake breathing living American POWs and yet they were never brought to trial. They bought their freedom with all the records they kept on murderous medical experiments.
 
MASSACRE ON PALAWAN
 
(December 14, 1944)
One hundred and fifty American prisoners of war, were incarcerated in a POW enclosure situated on top of the cliffs overlooking the Bay of Puerto Princesa on the island of Palawan in the Philippines. While working on the construction of an airfield they were made to dig three trenches 150ft long and 4ft 6ins deep within the camp. They were told that the trenches were air-raid shelters and practice drills were carried out. The shelters were small and cramped, the prisoners sitting bunched up with their knees under their chins. When an American convoy was sighted heading for Mindoro an air-raid alarm was sounded. The Japanese guards, thinking the island was about to be invaded, herded the prisoners into the covered trenches and then proceeded to pour buckets of petrol into the entrances followed by a lighted torch to ignite the gasoline. As the prisoners stormed the exists, their cloths on fire, they were mown down by light machine-gun fire or bayoneted, shot or clubbed.
Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

Son of Tech Sgt. Raymond A. Heilman, JR.
11 TH Field Artillery 1937-1940
Schofield Barracks

7 TH AAC 11 BGH 42 Sq.1940-45
Hickam Survivor 12/7/1941
USAAC Armorer (P) 911
Presidential Unit Citation 1942
Dwilma01

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RE: Death after bailout - Thursday, April 10, 2008 11:19 AM
Horst Jeckel PM'd me with a good link to a German site at http://www.flieger-lynchmorde.de/Text/auflistung.htm which details known incidents. The site is largely in German, but with the help of this site http://babelfish.altavista.com/ I could translate the important terms. I was stunned at the frequency of the incidents, but such conduct not only had official sanction, members of the police and armed forces were prohibited from intervening or they would be "held to account."
David Wilma
Son of 1LT Francis R. "Dick" Wilma (1920-2005)
ATC, Chabua, India, '44 - '45
http://home.comcast.net/~davidwilma/Index.htm
PA.Dutchman

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RE: Death after bailout - Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:04 PM
Here is a little more concerning the murder of Airmen by civilians in Germany
 
RUSSELHEIM ATROCITY (August 26, 1944)
On a bombing mission over Germany, a US 8th Airforce B-24 bomber, piloted by 2nd Lt Norman J Rogers, was hit by flak and crash landed some 90 miles south of Hanover. The nine man crew were captured, one with a broken ankle was taken to hospital. The other eight were put on a train to a P.O.W. camp. On the way, the train stopped at Russelheim where the airmen dismounted and were marched through the town under guard. During the march they were set upon by a crowd of townspeople and pelted with stones, bricks and shovels. Two airmen ran for their lives and escaped. The other six, battered and unconscious were shot by the local Nazi leader, a foreman in the towns Opel Works. All were buried in a common grave. Later, the bodies were recovered and re-interned in the Lorraine Military Cemetery at St Avold in France. After the war eleven of the perpetrators were found and arrested. Five men were found guilty and hanged, two women received a 30 year jail term, two other men, 15 years each, and one to 25 years. One was acquitted.
(In August 2001, one of the survivors, tail gunner Sidney E Brown, of Florida, was invited back to Russelsheim by the town municipality to receive a formal apology from its citizens. On the 60th anniversary of the atrocity , August 26, 2004, the town dedicated a memorial to those killed)
That same year, 1944, on December 13, three British airmen were captured and were being marched through the streets of Essen on their way to a Luftwaffe unit for interrogation. The three man escort was commanded by Hauptmann Erich Heyer who ordered the escorts not to interfere if civilians attacked the prisoners. Attacked they were as the party crossed a bridge. Sticks and stones were thrown and a pistol was fired which wounded one of the prisoners in the head. The prison and one of the civilians, Johann Braschoss, were sentenced to death. One of the escorts, Private Koenen, was sent to prison for five years and two other civilians, Karl Kaufer and Hugo Boddenberg, to life imprisonment and ten years respectively. The death sentences were carried out on March 8th 1946. On March 22, 1945, five RAF aircrew were captured after baling out from their damaged aircraft during a raid on the Dreierwalde airfield in which around forty civilians and Luftwaffe personnel were killed. Marched to an interrogation centre by a three man German guard, under the command of Oberfeldwebel Karl Amberger, the party turned on to a track leading into a wood. There the prisoners were shot in cold blood. One prisoner, Australian Flt. Lt. Berick, though wounded, managed to escape. At a British Military Court at Wuppertal on 11th to 14th March, 1946, Karl Amberger was found guilty of shooting unarmed prisoners of war and was sentenced to death. He was hanged on May 15th. 1946.
Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

Son of Tech Sgt. Raymond A. Heilman, JR.
11 TH Field Artillery 1937-1940
Schofield Barracks

7 TH AAC 11 BGH 42 Sq.1940-45
Hickam Survivor 12/7/1941
USAAC Armorer (P) 911
Presidential Unit Citation 1942
PFF

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Re: RE: Death after bailout - Wednesday, July 23, 2008 8:00 AM
See thread http://forum.armyairforces.com/New-York-Times-report-on-B17-corrected-m157322.aspx

Years ago came across a article that a US Fighter Pilot was killed by civilians after being shot down after Desden was bombed in April 1945 -Elwyn Righetti at thread http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2007/06/profile-p51-elwyn-guido-righetti.htm
Terry T.

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Re:Death after bailout - Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:12 PM
I think if you look at the big picture of things..you bomb my country, you kill my live stock, you even straf my fields with the machine-gun fire  and kill my family, now your plane is damaged and your crash on my property..you think Im going to welcome you with open arms. NO, Im probably going to kill you.

There two sides to a coin, don't look at just your side and say there all bad, put yourself in there place..what would you do?

Terry T.
PFF

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Re:Death after bailout - Wednesday, July 23, 2008 5:07 PM
HERE IS THE WHOLE STORY_INCLUDING ID OF VICTIUM:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=141835
Torgau

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Re:Death after bailout - Tuesday, August 19, 2008 1:47 PM
Hello,

check this web side:

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/

you found many information of trials.

Ulf
I'm search all information about the FG activities on April 17th 1945 in Europe.
Bruce Carson

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RE: Death after bailout - Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:31 PM
Joseph R. Coker, T-062975, is listed as a POW, camp unknown

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