Going thru Dad's things I found this sterling silver badge.  Given he was a Navigator, is this something likely for him to have secured?  Would it be for shooting during basic training at Ft. Bening or could he have gotten this for cross training on the turret and/or waist guns on a B-24?  I found a photo at:
http://www.soldiercity.com/product-exec/product_id/7945
The only difference is there is a bar attached underneath which reads, "MACHINE GUN"

Jim McCabe
My father, Lt. Mike McCabe(deceased 4/26/05), 307th BG, 424th BS, was a Navigator based at Morotai. Mission dates ranged from 2/20/45-8/1/45.

Hi Jim,
That badge was one of three the Army used for various grades of marksmanship. Under  the badge you hung on small bars the weapons that you qualified with. Typical was rifle for most soldiers but they had those bars for nearly every weapon. Machine gun was most likely after basic in adavanced training.

Barry S Kazmer
202 19 1/2 Ave. N.
Saint Cloud, MN 56303

I'm not sure if they awarded sterling silver qualification badges back then.  They were authorized for wear on the dress uniform, but the standard Class A uniform you would worn a pewter colored decoration (like the picture).  When I went through weapons training in Special Forces, I qualified expert on most everything the Army had - maching gun, rocket launcher, grenade, rifle, pistol, submachine gun, M-79 (grenade launcher).  You had all those bars hanging down from the badge.

Mike Simpson
Webmaster & Unit Historian
445th Bomb Group (Heavy)
http://www.445th-Bomb-Group.com
VP, 445th BG, Kassel Mission Historical Society
http://www.KasselMission.com

Jim...This is a touchy subject as it appears that the badge you speak of,was not authorized for the Army Air Forces but was a Ground Forces badge.... at the Atterbury-Bakalar Air Museum, we have the awards that Lt Bakalar was given, and this similar badge was awarded to him...however, in checking the Official Army Air Forces Guide, it is not mentioned....and I was told specifically,that that was NOT authorized for wear with my Army Air Forces uniform in WW II...whether this WAS authorized is a question I would like answered by someone more knowledgeable than I am.
 
Does anyone have the answer ?
 
Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Jim....are you saying that USAAF personnel weren't authorized or permitted to display their marksmanship badges on their uniform at all...at any time?
 
I don't challenge you because I don't know one way or the other.  Sounds odd to me though.  But in support of my logic that they would have been is that I'm lookin at my dad's WD AGO Form 53-55 dtd 1Nov44, (today it'd be a DD-214) it lists his two marksmanship badges, Carbine MM and Pistol MM clearly on the document.
 
If they weren't entitled to wear the badges, I wonder why they'd identify them on this important document.  Likely this document was used for both Army personnel and AAF personnel so maybe the clerks felt a need to transcribe the info as a matter of routine.
 
I'd have to look but I think I have a photo of dad in his uniform and it shows the marksmanship badges displayed...or at least one of them.  If not permitted to wear them you'd think someone would have pointed that out error out to the airman.
 
On the other hand, dad was entitled to the Technicians Badge with two bars and  A/C Wings, but neither made it to this document.  Go figure.
 
Sorry if I missed the point in this someplace.
 
Larry

Son of Cpl Charles Caldwell, Engineer Crewman, USAAF Crash Boat P-258, Rey Island, Panama (Pacific side)

Larry...Yes that is what I was saying...Lt Bakalar did have the Sharpshooters badge with Carbine in his awards..(As we know them), however, in checking the Official Army Air force Guide,( original paper back edition which shows a date of May 1944) and the later hardbound copy dated 1988, both show only the Technician's badge which was authorized for all specialties, and makes NO MENTION of the Army Marksmanship Badge with the various type of weapons...Rifle, Carbine, Pistol etc.
 
Further, I was informed when I transferred to the USAAF from the Infantry, that the Army Marksmanship badges were NOT AUTHORIZEd for any member of the USAAF.
 
Therefore, I am at a loss to explain the issuance of this type award to any USAAF soldier, ...officer or enlisted. 
 
There is no provision in the Official Army Air Force Guide to issue such an award, yet there are examples of the Army Marksmanship Award to USAAF personnel.
 
If there is such a regulation that allows award of the Army Marksmanship Award, I would appreciate the information.
 
Jim  :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Jim,
My experience agrees with your findings.  I never saw any USAAF guys wearing any of the qualification badges though we had to qualify on a number of weapons.  My discharge mentions none of these weapon qualifications.  As I recall one could buy any such badges at Army Navy stores, but we were not issued any of them.  These are of course distinct from the air gunner's wings we were issued upon graduating from gunnery school.

Bob Gilbert
Ball Turret Gunner, Goldin crew
381st Bomb Gp., 533rd Bomb Sq.
US 8th Air Force

ORIGINAL: jpeters140
There is no provision in the Official Army Air Force Guide to issue such an award, yet there are examples of the Army Marksmanship Award to USAAF personnel....If there is such a regulation that allows award of the Army Marksmanship Award, I would appreciate the information...

The badges you have been discussing here were governed by Army Regulation 600-35. The edition in force on November 10, 1941, covers the basic weapons qualification badge that had been an Army standard for many years (it even meant extra pay for a soldier who qualified at the expert level). Included in this edition are 20 separate qualification bars for various individual and crew-served weapons. In addition to such expected bars for "Rifle," "Pistol - D," and "Auto Rifle," there were bars as well for "Aerial Gunner" (bar #14) and "Aerial Bomber" (#15), which presumably were intended for Air Corps use. Of course, this edition of AR 600-35 predated the advent of Bombardier wings (July 1942) and Aerial Gunner wings (April 1943), which evidently would have made redundant the earlier weapons qualification bars for the same skills. Nevertheless, the same bars as well as the new wings all appear together in the succeeding edition of AR 600-35 dated March 31, 1944. And, just for good measure, a new Army Air Forces Technician badge was added to the mix in January 1943 with a total of 27 qualification bars ranging from "AP Armorer" (#1) to "RC Turret Rep." (#27). Surely this was enough to flummox even the most astute 1st Sergeant or guardhouse lawyer.

The definitive answer to the original question undoubtedly is lost in the fog of antiquity but here is one hypothesis: In 1941 the Air Corps was as much a part of the Army as the horse Cavalry and Air Corps soldiers qualified with individual weapons according to their unit TO&E. In 1942 the Army Air Forces took to the skies, which was the beginning of a whole new game and a whole new culture, where marksmanship badges would have had about as much utility as boots and saddles. (Note: The present day USAF has a Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon.)

Thank you for the clarification...this covers the issue...apparently there were gaps in the education of many Army Air Force First Sergeants and Provost Marshals.

I have copied this to my records.

Thank you again.

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Thanks to all!  To further clarify, this badge is stamped "sterling" on the reverse.  My Dad would have never bought it, but it could have been my grandfathers' if these were issued as far back as World War I.

Jim McCabe
My father, Lt. Mike McCabe(deceased 4/26/05), 307th BG, 424th BS, was a Navigator based at Morotai. Mission dates ranged from 2/20/45-8/1/45.

Qualification Badges from "The Officer's Guide" 1942, Uniforms and Equipment:

b. Badges. Badges are worn on the left breast, aviation and parachutist badges above the line of medals or service ribbons, other badges below that line. Substitues are not authorized to be worn in lieu of badges. There is no order of precedence for badges.

(1) Badges for marksmanship, gunnery, bombing, etc.

(a) Badges for qualification in the use of arms.

1. General. For any one weapon, only the badge for the qualification held at the time will be worn. For the designation of authorized weapons see AR 600-35.

Photo: Page 175.

[image]local://9698/11C603ACD6574D1D91947FFD2F477FBD.gif[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Qualification Badges from "The Officer's Guide" 1942, Uniforms and Equipment:

No more than one basic badge (AR 600-35) of any one class, e.g., marksman, pistol, marksman, etc., will be worn. Requalifications, or qualification in the same class with more than one weapon, will be indicated by appropriate bars (AR 600-35), which will be worn attached to the basic badge.

Photo: Page 176

[image]local://9698/26275F78663E47CA87036E58CD814BCD.gif[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Well, my dad qualified with pistol and carbine (as noted in his service records), but said he never wore the badges.  He did, however, wear the specialist badge with appropriate bars.

The Sarge's Daughter

According to dad, if an enlisted man was off duty and just sitting around he was likely to be tagged for some undesirable project by a roving MSgt seeking to fill a detail. Hence, he says that he spent a good bit of time hanging around the rifle range acquiring various ratings as this was considerably more more fun than say cleaning out the grease pit behind the kitchen.
He was awarded the marksmanship badge with rifle, pistol, carbine and machine gun bars. (He earned the latter with a Thompson but says he was never able to qualify with the M-3 "grease gun".) I see airmen wearing marksmanship medals in a lot of pics of the era. Mostly formal portraits in class A uniform. Whether officially sanctioned or not, it seems that marksmanship training and medals were given at least in some areas.

This is an interesting thread,
 
I got into a conversation about weapons fired,what types and such, qualifying on the range with my dads pilot many years ago.(My dad had several qualification badges and fired 20mm and 30mm in Armorers school.)
 
Gris was a former U.S. Army Calvery officer before going to the AAC and 4 engine school. Gris qualified with a pistol while mounted on a horse and was proud of it. sent me a photo of his PISTOL -M  bar to prove it. 
 
That impressed me. I usually shot expert with M-1,M-14,.45,and qualified with machine guns,M-60 and such.
 
But firing from a horse and shooting expert I doubt I could do it.
 
(I did tell Gris I had him beat in the largest gun fired at a target. I was a gunner,gun chief and fired my M114 155mm Howitzer at targets on a range in direct fire and hit them.)
 
Jack      

GREMLIN2
1st Lt. W. Griswold "Gris" Smith crew
March 14,1945-December 8,1945
100th Bomb Group (H),349th BS,Thorpe Abbotts,UK
http://www.100thbg.com/mainpages/crews/crews3/smith.htm

[soapbox]
Cavalry
As in "Saved by the Cavalry", Cavalry charge, or "If you ain't Cav, you ain't ..."
 
Calvary, a hill of renown in Jerusalem.
[/soapbox]
 
Nothing personal, just a peeve of mine.

Another explanation could be that, while awards and decorations may have been authorized  they were not always issued, at least not in a timely manner and sometimes never.  I once had a suprvisor whose attitude was that if your 201 file did not show something as being issued, you didn't wear it.

proud vet-3rd of 4 generations

Here is a "before-and-after" series showing a lieutenant wearing the expert marksmanship badge, first in the Infantry and then in the Air Corps, after flight training (and early in the war; that solo ribbon he wearing in the later picture is the American Defense Service Medal).  Too bad that the individual weapons bars are indecipherable.