Another question to assist an author with his book (same one who needed info on whether B-17s were manufactured in Boise). This time he needs to know who manufactured the turrets and the gunsights used in the turrets on the B-17, especially the chin turret. Searching the forum I came up with the partial answer that Sperry made the gunsights but the turret manufacturers were varied. Thanks for any help.

Ray Merriam
Owner, Merriam Press
Publisher of World War II and military history books and publications

Emerson made turrets (B-24 front turret); Martin made turrets (top turrets);
Correct me if I am wrong armyairforces members, but I think Consolidated made turrets as well--the B-24 tail turret.  And of course there is the famous Sperry Ball turret. 
 
Pete

Nose =  Bendix Chin Turret, Model D
 
Upper Turret = Sperry Turret, Type A-1  ( early turrets had low-profile, framed glass dome, later models had high-profile, unframed glass dome )
 
Ball Turret = Sperry Turret, Model 645473E
 
Tail Turret -  hand-held guns early, later United Airlines Modification Center, Cheyenne Wyoming developed the Cheyenne tail turret for B-17's
 
 
Turret makers = Sperry, Emerson, Bendix, Erco, Consolidated, and Martin,  some on lots of planes, some on only one specific plane.  
 

SHAEF1944 American Veterans Museum

SHAEF1944

Who manufactured the periscope/remote control type lower turret found on early B-17E? 

Is the early B-17E lower turret the same as used on the early B-25s? 

TonyM.

Hi all..
There was a post, several, a year ago? Concerning the findng of several crates and drums of unused spare parts for turret manufacture. Amongst all those posts, it was discussed that whilst Emerson concentrated on B-24 turret manufacture, they also subcontracted some work from Sperry on building the A-1 Top Turret as fitted to the B-17; something I had not personally been aware of, until then at least.
 
Ian

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Ian, I remember the post about the spare parts. My thoughts are it might have been the Yankee Air Museum. I think it was a museum that had them. Didn't Tucker the car guy have something to do with the turret invention in Michigan?

Tony, Bendix made the remote-sighted lower turrets, not sure if they were the same model numbers on the B-25 and B-17. Will do a little research and see if I can turn up some model/type numbers on those.

The worst problem was that sighting through a periscope tended to make the gunners airsick, and was a tricky task to begin with. Doolittle had found the whole idea ridiculous: "A man could learn to play the fiddle good enough for Carnegie Hall before he could learn to fire that thing."


Further Info:  Quote from AAF Historical Study "Development of A/C Gun Turrets" :

"The pressing demand for a lower turret led the Armament Laboratory to recommend that the GFE Branch of the Material Division open negotiations with Bendix to prepare the way for lower turrets in production quantities to fulfil the turret requirements for medium and heavy bombardment airplanes.  Somewhat earlier the Ordnance officer at Wright Field had suggested that production would be best served if each type of turret could be designed for a specific plane model, but the demand for turrets ran ahead of design perfection and the turret primarily developed for the B-25 was of necessity considered for the B-17 and B-24"

Still looking to find model #

SHAEF1944 American Veterans Museum

There were THREE Sperry top turrets....A1A, A1B, and A1C....the A!C is the one installalled in the AZ Wing CAF B-17 Sentimenal Journey. The A1C came from Art Lacey's B-17 Bomber Service station along with the armored glass in front of the tail gunner. ( Art was given a ride from Portland to Phoenix in SJ,for the donation of the A1C top turret to the AZ Wing CAF).

The A1C differs from the other two Sperry turrets in that the main support structure is composed of two vertical steel ammo boxes that go all the way to the base of the turret...these hold approximately 1000-1200 rounds each (WAG). and I think it was developed for the YB-40, and adopted for use in the late Gs.

The B-17 that used to sit on pylons at Art Lacey's gas station was a late Vega.
 
As to the Sperry lower ball turet there were at least two...A2, and A2A (according to my copy of the B-17 -4.)

Jim :-)   Member of AZ WIng CAF from 1978-1991

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Correction.....Tail turret B-17...hand held ONLY...no power turret...actually a mis-nomer....it never was a power turret...the B-17 books refer to it as tail GUNS.

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

What about the later war "Cheyenne" turrets- they seemed a little more involved than the earlier canvas covered ones on the B-17, and a little more unweildy to move without power, or am I just misremembering again...

Robbie

The Cheyenne was more roomy in the tail than the earlier model..but it was still NOT a power turret. The early Cheyenne tail gun enclosure had a small section of flap to assist the gunner but later installations deleted these.

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Tony, I found that the remote-sighted turret was Model K in the B-25, according to a manual I found online, BUT ..... a mystery now
 
My above post quoted from the AFHRA Historical Study which states that the Bendix lower turret was developed for the B-25, and also used on B-17, B-24.  However, a guy pointed me to an Erection Manual for B-17E which says:
 
"4) BOTTOM TURRET - The bottom turret is installed
in the rear fuselage section just aft of the radio
compartment. Two installations are provided as follows:

(a) On airplanes, AC serial numbers 41-2393 to 41-2504
inclusive, the Sperry number 645705-D remote sighted
twin .50-caliber bottom turret is installed. The sighting station
for this turret is installed directly to the rear, and is operated
from the prone position with the gunner heading aft. Ammunition boxes for 500 rounds per gun are attached to the turret. Provision has been made on these airplanes for interchangeability with the spherical turret."
 
A Sperry drawing number ?  I'm puzzled, everything I ever seen is that it was Bendix.  Maybe a Sperry design, subcontracted to Bendix for production ?  Why can't any of this be easy ?

 

SHAEF1944 American Veterans Museum

Hi Phil... you are probably right about Michigan connection. Although, whilst I recall the posting in parts, and certainly recall the large amount of unused new parts in crates-drums recently discovered, I for the ife of me cant remember who or where those crates-drums were found or where being checked and inventaried. I did recall, as I said, the statements tha amongst SPERRY equiment there were equally numbers of EMERSON ELECTRIC CO parts, and the comments on their work under subcontract for the Sperry A1. I confess I havent taken time to trawl through the past post lists to rack this down, I'm sure it is still there, and Scott and his crew havent deleted it!!!
 
My interest in the A1 Emerson built Sperry designed Top Turret came about because of searching a known B-17 crash site in Germany 1999. At the time a number of parts which came from the Top Turret, were found to have embossed marks 'EMERSON', which initially threw the identifying of same. It now seems the plane concened carried an Emerson built Sperry A1......
 
I saw the remarks from Rich/SHAEF on the Bendix/Sperry saga!!! I am no expert on US war production, but what little Ive read about would tend to point my thoughts towards the shared subcontracting of such items. After all, war is war, and in times of need every possible ounce of production has to be realised. The classic and very well know example of this of course would be Boeing Sub-con of the '17 to Vega and Douglas....
 
But, there are I'm sure a few studious types who make it their life work in recording and researching ths very narrow subject, and will I have no doubt have the deffinative answers for us all.....
 
Ian

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Ian...An excellent example of sharing is the CG4 glider....there were some twenty manufacturers of the CG4 Glider and many more who were subtracted to furnish sections of the glider, in cluding a coffin mfg as one of them.

What is difficult for some of the younger generation to understand is that  the massive effort by every little jewelry shop with a small lathe, that was in the business as well, of making parts for instruments. 
There is a small dairy in a small town near Columbus, Ohio, named Pickerington, that was making dried milk produicts..the infamous Powdered Milk.. as were other diaries across the USA...this extended to EVERY facet of the war procuction.
 
As the 8th AF had their "Bits and Pieces"..the same can be said for the production of small parts throughout the USA.

The B-29s firebombed the cottage industry in Japan because every little home in Japan was producing something....we in the US, differed only, in that we, were not fire bombed for the exact same thing.

The Allies and the US, outproduced the Germans, Italians and Japanese to put it bluntly.

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

I think this is what you were looking for:

Subject: Emerson Electric Mfg Turret Division


Our museum has acquired 275+ 55 gal drums of turret parts from the Emerson Turret plant here in St. Louis. I've been working on this deal for over a year and made many visits to this salvage facility in an attempt to ID the parts. I was expecting mostly A-15 parts but I'm finding more Sperry upper and ball parts than A-15s. I also see lots of Martin 250CE-5 and Aero parts. Friday I found some Avenger TBM/F turret parts. Anyone know how many complete turret models were built under license at this plant? Anyone know how many turrets they just built parts for? Any help would be much appreciated.
Albert Stix Jr.
Historic Aircraft Restoration Museum
Creve Coeur Airport
Maryland Heights, MO.

http://forum.armyairforces.com/fb.asp?m=100293

Ken

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Hey .. Ken 'Dick Tracey' 24 ...!!! You found the target required. Yes, thats the original posting I remembered. This reinforces the premis of sub-con of war manufacture of the turrets as iscussed.
Thanks for tracking it down for others to read.
 
Jim. Thanks for your posting too. As an aside, the production of powered milk I think came under the general product name of 'KLIM' - Milk spelled backwards! Tins were creamy white with nut brown coloured company logos and writing. A lot of this product found ts way into the ETO and quite a lot into local British family homes. You ever remember those?? Or have any of our other veteran members on the forum have recollections of the powdered milk cans?
 
Many years ago, I had a good friend in the RAF 158 Sqn, flew Halifax four engine bombers during 1942. This man was PoW in Stalag III, and was part of the Great Escape effort of March 1944 (When 50 RAF airmen were murdered upon capture by Gestapo under Hitlers orders as an example NOT to escape anymore from PoW camps). Anyway, my veteran friend had worked on the tunnel system and parts of the ducting, for circulating air to the tunnellers below ground, some of which was made up of empty KLIM cans, which would point to an awful lot of powered milk being sent via the Red Cross at that time!!
 
As many of the forum will no doubt know, just 76 men actually escaped on the night of the famous Great Escape, many more did not enter the tunnel system as the escape was halted, and therefore without doubt were saved from the exercusion, at the hands of the 'SS'. My friend as I said, had helped during the lengthy construction and build up to the escape, and was listed at 104 in the line ready to go, in sight of the tunnel entrance inside the hut used. Thankfully for him the escape was stopped, and he survived.
 
Ian W

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Tony, I found that the remote-sighted turret was Model K in the B-25, according to a manual I found online, BUT ..... a mystery now

My above post quoted from the AFHRA Historical Study which states that the Bendix lower turret was developed for the B-25, and also used on B-17, B-24. However, a guy pointed me to an Erection Manual for B-17E which says:

"4) BOTTOM TURRET - The bottom turret is installed
in the rear fuselage section just aft of the radio
compartment. Two installations are provided as follows:

(a) On airplanes, AC serial numbers 41-2393 to 41-2504
inclusive, the Sperry number 645705-D remote sighted
twin .50-caliber bottom turret is installed. The sighting station
for this turret is installed directly to the rear, and is operated
from the prone position with the gunner heading aft. Ammunition boxes for 500 rounds per gun are attached to the turret. Provision has been made on these airplanes for interchangeability with the spherical turret."

A Sperry drawing number ? I'm puzzled, everything I ever seen is that it was Bendix. Maybe a Sperry design, subcontracted to Bendix for production ? Why can't any of this be easy ?

 
Thanks
 
TonyM.