I am not sure I can tell you anything more....The 5th Wing History shows the mission of November 5, 1944 to be to Vienna, Austria Florisforf OiL Refinery, and the mission on the 15th November, 1944 was to Linz Austria benzol plant.

I think it more likely that the Aircraft Record card is the accurate report and that the aircraft was lost on 15 November 1944.

What I have NOT seen mentioned so far, is the possibility, that the mistake lies with the accident report...all it would take is an addition, of the "1" in front of the 5 November, 1944, to make the record read correctly.

Therefore, I suspect the date of 15 November, 1944, is the correct date. 

I know that Dick Drain was very careful, in his research, of accurately recording  the events, in compiling the 5th Wing History of Aircraft Assigned.

If you will look in the acknowledgments of Roger Freeman and David Osborne's ,The Fying Fortress Story, you will see that Dick Drain is given credit for his conrtibutions, and I am sure that they were obtained from the 5th Wing History...so ,it is no coincidence that both the Freeman book and the 5th Wing History agree.

jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

dear Jim, thanks for your message. I read about this, some other crew report .As soon as possible I will  send a copy. On november 5th on the way back, terrific winds throw planes near the lake Garda north Italy at about 45 degrees north and 10 east.I saw a b17 olive drab spinning down after a battle with some nazi's fighters.this plane was the last in a box of six. I never found out which plane was it.which group.The base of course was south Italy. It is for that the only plane  lost in north ItalyI thought was the 42-9728. Can you try please  to help me to find out which was the plane I saw lost on that day. The four airmen parachuted was liberated on 29th April 1945 by 10th moutain infantry division.Thanks a lot.riva56

Riva56....I just went through 5th Wing History with the following  results


5 Nov 1944.......44-8001  301sr BG  lost 5 Nov 1944 cr near Tesi  MACR 7536

15 Nov 1944.....42-97568  483rd BG   Lost 15 Nov 1944 cr near Salzburg    MACR 9900

15 Nov 1944.....42-97728   301 BG......Lost  15 Nov 1944  cr near Salzburg   MACR 10081

These are the results for  both 5 Nov 1944 and  5 Nov 1944

These are the only planes lost on those dates.

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

dear jim,  many thanks for your replay. there are italian antiaircraft companies that mention a loss of b17 on november 5th 1944.this plane may be is the same I saw on that day.About that report I  think about a typing mistake.An american plane was shot down,I try to find out what happened. Help me please.Thanks in advance from riva56. 

dear Jim can you also help to find more detailed informations about the above plane "Mary Ellen"lost on north Italy on November 11th 1944. About the plane 42-97728 I hope with your help to clear up between different usaf sources,what exactly happened.thanks a lot.riva56

Hi,
For what it's worth.
44-8001
301st BG
A PFF a/c, assigned 30th July 44. Crashed near Iesi (not Tesi) after a mission on 5th November 1944.
Crew
Johnson
Boswell
Malloy
Hanley
Stone
Humphrey
Guyre
Sabo.
Two unknown crew survive.
Rest KIA
MACR 7536.
---------------------------

42-97728
301st BG
352nd BS
A PFF a/c.
Tranfer from 2nd BG 15th May 1944.
MIA Linz 15th November 1944.
Crashed near Salzburg.
Crew
Mitchko
Bullock
Hillhouse
Cantwell
Flood
Haglund
Imlay
Patterson
O'Brien
Spagnola

Hillhouse and Patterson both POW.
All the rest KIA.
MACR 10081.
---------------------------------

42-97568
483rd BG
816th BS
A PFF a/c.
Transfered from 2nd BG.
MIA Linz 15th November 1944.
Dam,aged by flak, crashed near Zeltweg.
Crew
Eder
Riodan
Noll
Brick
Hamiel
McCormick
Cadwell
Sojjke
Davis
Anderson
All POW
MACR 9900.
----------------------------------------
Ref for the above was 5th Bomb Wing History of aircraft assigned by Richard E. Drain.

And also 42-50960, she was a 376th BG a/c of the 515th BS, name: "Mary Ellen".

All the best
Alex
 

dear jim, on accident report.com site the loss of plane 42-97728  was over "mediterranean" date of crash november 5th 1944. riva56

Hi, the aircraft  "mary Ellen" n.42-50960 piloted by Walter Mader was shot down on november 11th 1944 over Mezzocorona Adige river bridge.this was the 362nd mission.the bridge is in north Italy about at 46N and 11E. riva56

on searchable combat chronology  on november 15th 1944 on the macrs list is not included plane 42-97728 macr 10081.This plane is included  on losses of november 5th. The exact loss of this plane is 5th. which will be  the exact place of crash. I think  as I said that the crash place could be over North Italy. regard to all.riva56

Hello,

Again for what it is worth, have you looked in the ABMC website ?

Under the Bomber Group/Squadron for the crew of 42-97728  MACR 10081
You will find six of the eight men , all listed as 15th November 1944.
They are-
1Lt. Benjamin E. Cantwell
2Lt. William W. Flood
S/Sgt. Robert G. Haglund
S/Sgt. Mark E. Imlay
Sgt. Albert H. Mitchko
Sgt. William J. O'Brien
No mention of Bullock or Spagnola for some reason .

Hillhouse and Patterson the POW's - maybe you can find them and their date of capture in the NARA site.

All the best
Alex 

Hello
some annotations for B-17G-45-VE, 44-8001, 32nd BS/301st BG
07.August.1944 Blechhammer, Germany
MACR 7536

25.11.1944 MIA Linz, Austria on a Night Mission with the Vernon O. Johnson Crew.
overshot the runway at the SAAF Airfield Ancona-Jesi, Italy

NO MACR

2 Crewmembers possibily POW (look at NARA)
2nd Lt. Moran, Arthur R. and 1st Lt. Gubitosi, Novello A.

at footnote is a remark from the SAAF Wing Commander

all the best Hartmut

Attached Image(s)

Hello
I must correct myself
2nd Lt. Moran, Arthur R. and 1st Lt. Gubitosi, Novello A. where from "Stardust"
B-17G-25-VE, 42-97685
lost on the same Mission to Linz.

footenote shows the accident Report of 1st Lt. Johnson, reason for the fatal crash was an engine failure.
Sorry

all the best Hartmut

Hi,
Have been trying to reply  for a while - tonight it seems to be working OK.

NONE of the three B17's serial numbers 44-8001,42-97728 or 42-97568 are the one seen by riva56.

More than once he said that he had seen an "OLIVE DRAB" B17 fall out of the sky.

Well  these three a/c
B17G-20-VE 42-97568
B17G-25-VE 42-97728
B17G-45-VE 44-8001
were not  camouflaged a/c but off the production lines in their Aluminum state.
The only one that may have been would be 42-97568 as this was in the 20-VE block and some early a/c were camouflaged.

Also the post by Hago has provided an answer that did puzzle me too (44-8001) there is also the date of 8/7/44 in connection with it too.

The Brother of Flood has honored him on the ABMC site and there is also a picture of Flood . Both for him and Cantwell their date is given as the 15th.
Perhaps a copy of an IDPF for one of the crew would give the answer that is saught.

ATB
Alex

hago


Hello
I must correct myself
2nd Lt. Moran, Arthur R. and 1st Lt. Gubitosi, Novello A. where from "Stardust"
B-17G-25-VE, 42-97685
lost on the same Mission to Linz.

footenote shows the accident Report of 1st Lt. Johnson, reason for the fatal crash was an engine failure.
Sorry
all the best Hartmut

 
HAGO:
Footnote show's PB-17G 42-97685 MACR #10108
http://www.footnote.com/viewer.php?image=28715117&query=Moran%2C+Arthur+R&words=arthurs%7CR%7CMoran%7CArthur#28715004
 
Terry T.
 

Hi,
 
look at the story of the B17-G, serial number 42-97728, Nickname NONE, at the site of the community Kleinsoelk in Austria. We were able to arrange a very lovely dedication ceremony for 20 relatives, living in USA and Germany at August, 09^th, 2008!
 
www.kleinsoelk.at à Geschichte à Flugzeugabsturz


Manfred Brandner, Kleinsoelk, Austria 

Hi,

here is the complete link: http://www.kleinsoelk.at/flugzeugabsturz.html
Info both in Germany and English

Manfred Brandner