868th BS, 13th A.F., So. Pac.

Is anyone out there familiar with any of these names?? S/Sgt. Vernon J. Baker, Ohio; 1st Lt. Richard A. Gay, Alabama; T/Sgt. T/Sgt. Lloyd H. George, Mich; 2nd Lt. Thomas M. Hartnell, No. Carolina, 2nd Lt. Fay L. Slagle, Penn; T/Sgt. David White, Ill.; S/Sgt. Antonio Scotto, New York; T/Sgt. Isadore G. La Mica, New York; S/Sgt. Victor M. Armendariz, Calif. They were the crew of a B-24 somewhere in the South Pacific during WWII. They were reported missing Mar. 20, 1944. Vernon J. Baker reported missing July 20, 1944 and Isadore G. La Mica was reported missing Nov. 24, 1944. Does anyone have any information on them? Where were they stationed to fly their missions, etc???? Any information would be appreciated.
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A suggestion....as this was a Secret Operational Squadron, I think your best bet will be to ask for the IDPFs on these individuals. To do so, please go to the top of this page and there will be a double row of sections across the top above the blue line. At the right side of the top row, is Research...click on that, and a window will appear, with directions and addresses to write to for the IDPFs....There is no known MACR in the available MACR database for March 20, 1944, with a loss for the 868th BS.
This tells me that the MACR was made out AFTER the war was over and those numbers are above the 14,000 series of numbers....one problem, is, that the MACR number has to be known in order to obtain a copy.

The recourse, is to request the individual IDPF for each individual. You should make the requests under the Freedom of Information Act, as you are not a relative.

It is possible that the MACR number and the actual date of loss will be on the IDPF, and the circumstances surrounding the loss as well. IDPF stands for Individual Deceased Personnel File. MACR is the Missing Air Crew Report.

As the MACR is unknown, and the actual date of loss is suspect ,for at least two of the crew, and possibly the rest of the crew, ...the IDPF is the only answer at this time.....if the MACR number can be ascertained, then you can ask for it. This may be a lengthy wait, as the issuing agency is backlogged.

You do not say what your interest is in this crew.

Jim :-)
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Due to the sececy of their ops, tracking down where the "Snoopers" operated from at any given time is not easy. There are reports of it operating firstly from Munda and later from Negros, Morotai and Noemfoor.

Given the date, the 7 men reported MIA 20-Jun-44 might fit this:
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MACR 12421 - I am T/Sgt Bob Black. For most of my active military career I was a flight engineer. I flew about 40 missions in B-24 bombers....Two days later we were at Espiritu Santo, assigned to the 13th Army Air Corp, 5th Bomb Group, 868th Bomb Squadron. There we flew night missions while waiting for new radar recruits. Then we moved up to Guadalcanal to conduct some night scouting missions. Our instructions were that if you don't see anything go drop your bombs on some Jap-held island. Then we were off to New Guinea and night missions on New Britain, which just happened to be the most heavily defended base in the South Pacific, next to Truk. When you got near New Britain you would have thought it was the fourth of July from all the flak that came up. Then we went up to Los Negras in the Admiralty Group and flew night missions over Truk, Palau, Biak, Hollandia, Yap, Waidky, and a couple of others. But Truk was the really tough one. On the morning of June 10, 1944 we took a hit from flak that pierced our right wing between the fuselage and the number three engine. Thank the good Lord it was a dud. However, it severed our fuel lines and gas just poured out. There was nothing we could do about it. An hour later we were out of gas and had to ditch. Our beloved B-24 just disintegrated on impact and everyone was thrown from the plane. We lost seven crewmen and the rest were in bad shape. The waist gunner had both hips dislocated and the tail gunner had both arms broken. I had two double compound fractures of the left leg and a spiral fracture of the right leg. We got the small raft located near the right wing and after some time we got aboard. We spent the next five days and four nights watching the planes going back and forth to Truk. We were finally spotted and picked up by a PBY. Five weeks later I was back in the states at Walla Walla, Washington, at McCaw general hospital.[/#804000]

According to [url "http://www.abmc.gov"]www.abmc.gov[/url], La Mica was one of 20 868th personnel MIA 20-Nov-44. To date no MACR is listed for what either 2 a/c lost or perhaps a loss of crews going R&R. The MACR database does list: MACR 10897, 11/24/1944, C-47, 42-93504 from the 868th, a curiosity, but given the nature of the 868th, maybe they did have their "own" transport.
Joe Baugher lists it as 41-93504 (868th TCG) lost Nov 24, 1944. MACR 10897. The Units DB does not list an 868th TCG. Examination of this MACR may be interesting.

Pete
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I would add this....after the war was over...MACRs were generated for losses that did not have a MACR assigned to them....the new MACRs are numbered in the 16,000 +, and the MACR number has to be KNOWN to obtain the correct MACR.
Up until the max number of 14,000, the MACRs are available on MICROFILM....the Numbered MACRs generated after the war (16,000 +) are on MICROFICHE.. two to three MACRs to a Microfiche card,..it has been estimated that a full set of microfiche cards would cost around $ 2000.00.

Jim :-)
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My Dad, TSgt Odell Dyer was part of that crew - he was radar operator. Gay was the copilot. LaMica was engineer. The plane went down in the Pacific 3/20/44 and all were lost except Gay, LaMica, and my dad.

LaMica later went on R&R to NZ and his plane was missing and presumed lost, which is why his date was later ... I can recall my dad talking about "Scotto", but most of his stories were about LaMica whom he admired and respected very much.

I believe they were flying out of Munda at the time on New Georgia island. Earlier they flew out of Henderson Field. Gay was badly injured in the crash - he went through the windshield and apparently LaMica went through after him. My dad doesn't know how he got out - he was unconscious and also badly hurt (back mostly). LaMica kept them together and afloat until they were picked up the next day. There was a Marine "observer" on board and my dad thinks the Marines insisted on SAR. My son is now a Marine in Iraq.

Let me correct the above. Toole was the copilot who survived - Gay was the pilot.

I would like to reconstruct more about the 868th and my Dad's experiences, but he only talks about things when he feels like it, which is not too often. He's 87 and I have bits and pieces from him, which I've always wanted to get down somewhere.

This was a standard solo night mission for a "Snooper", interdicting enemy shipping as their primary mission in the Solomon area. My dad said he knows the radar dome had been deployed - rolled down where the belly turret would normally be. This means they were at operational altitude, which could be 2,000 feet. The after action note said they crashed right off the runway, but my dad says that is impossible because the dome wouldn't have been deployed that early. More like it was 15 minutes o ros after takeoff. My dad said their first plane that night had a run-away supercharger on one engine, and they aborted and took this one.

Dad said he had no indication they were going in and recalls nothing about the crash itself. He came to in the water. He speculates that the heavy radar dome hit first and tore the plane in half so he could have floated free. Getting down to his compartment was convoluted so he sees no way he could have climbed out normally with the high winged B-24 sinking fast.

Dad was badly hurt, especially in his back, and Toole had gone through the windshield and had major head injuries and was mostly unconscious. LaMica, the flight engineer, kept them afloat through the night - two men drifting in an out of consciousness in shark-infested waters. They happened to get picked up by a U.S. destroyer the next morning some time. The crew was supposed to shoot the radar operator according to my dad if there was a chance of being captured by the enemy.

They were evaced to a hospital around Henderson field which was still subject to Japanese strafing runs at night. My dad recalls lying immobilized on a cot after some surgery during one of these when a bullet came in his area spinning on the sand. He reached down to pick it up and dropped it because it was hot.

Some months later, LaMica wanted Dad to take a plane to NZ for R&R and Dad said he didn't feel like going. The plane was never heard from again. About ten years ago, the local paper found LaMica's sister in New York state and they had a phone call. My dad always talking glowingly about LaMica and relayed this to his sister after all these years.

Dad also flew B-18's [?] out of Langley after his first radar training on anti-sub patrols before going overseas. Prior to that, he had been selected for OCS, but just before he left his sgt said "Dyer you're not going to OCS and I can't tell you why." which led to his going to radar school. Dad was originally trained as a radio operator.

As I recall, this was his 13th mission in SOPAC. He told a few other interesting tales which I will attempt to recount here when I have the time.

Do you know if your Dad would know if Toole went on to pilot a crew with a radar guy by the name of Al Semmelroth?

I can't believe Toole would have been restored to flight status.  I met him years ago and he still showed clear evidence of his injury - his forehead was at a very odd angle and he had a plate in it.  I can't answer your question for sure though - I know pilots were in demand then, but not before 1945 I would think. 
 
In the crash, Toole clearly went through the windshield, accounting for the head trauma.  LaMica was the only one of the three relatively uninjured and kept the other two together and afloat until they were picked up some time later (morning).  I believe LaMica received a commendation for that of some sort.

Cincydawg:
 
I have the book entitled The Snoopers by Fred Stanley Howell.  I looked up pilots in the book.  It states "1st Replacement Crews on Guadalcanal, November 1943" as follows:
 
Lt. Arthur Deland
 
Lt. Donald E. Thompson:  Crashed after takeoff from Noemfoor, September 19, 1944.  Five crew members killed, seven survived including Thompson and
 
D. W. Barry.
 
Lt. Federick C. Bryan.
 
Then it states:  "Next replacement crews:" 
 
Lt. Richard A. Gay:  Crashed after takeoff from Munda, March 20, 1944.  Three survivors: Toole, copilot; Lamica, engineer; and Dyer, radar operator.
 
Lt. Thomas B. Arthur: Lost over Turk, April 1944.
 
Lt. Robert A. Robbins; Crew lost when plane crashed into Rendova, March 1944.
 
Lt. Kenneth R. King: Failed to return from Rabaul, March 11, 1944.
 
Lt. Peter S. Colt: Crashed on takeoff from Noemfoor, September 22, 1944.  One survivor.
 
Lt. Charles Binford
 
Lt. Phillip A. Hoffman
 
Lt. Robert J. Alsop
 
Lt. Robert E. Rauch:  Made water landing while returning from attack on Palau, May 5, 1944.  Three killed.  Crashed on takeoff from Los Negros, July 1, 1944, two killed.
 
Lt. Irving G. Booth:  After attacking Truk, ran out of gas and made night water landing.  Three survived.  June 1944.
 
Lt. Wilson Nicholas
 
Lt. Don W. Dyer: Shot down in flames over Truk, Jule 11, 1944.
 
Lt. Jack L. Wagner: Shot down over Truk, June 12, 1944.
 
Lt. Louis Beck
 
Lt. Wilmer B. Haynes: Lost over Truk, June 25, 1944.
 
Lt. Dwight D. Barry: Crashed on takeoff from Morotai, March 10, 1945.  Twelve killed, one survivor: Carl Daye. 
 
. . . There are 58 more pilot's names listed.
 
 Approximately June 1945 it lists  Lt. Bernard E. Toole.  He was the pilot and  Albert Semmelroth was the radar observer.
 
My father was a radar observed and also a  Snooper.  He was KIA on June 19, 1945 and a member of Steven Ober's crew.  He was the only one on the plane killed.  He and Semmelroth went through college training, cadet school, navigation and radar together and then were assigned to the 868th.  I would imagine this would have been a rare happening.  They were very good friends.  I missed being able to talk to him by 2 months.  I could not identify the last name on the return address on an envelope of correspondence to my mother by  Semmelroth.   I am really curious if this Toole (spelling same as you used) is the same guy. 
 
 
The book concludes with  "Crews listed on the roster at the end of the war:"
 
Lt. George G. Grupe III
Lt. Jack B. Shattuck
Lt. Wallace J. Palmer
Lt. Warren R. Hoover
Lt. Richard D. Elston
Lt. Donald E. Sark
 
This following is a paragraph in the book about Gay's accident.
 
"One Snooper crew was lost in an operational accident at Munda.  First Lieutenant Richard Gay and crew were taking off in one of the original Snooper aircraft;  Two engines lost power at a critical time in the climb-out and Lt. Gay was forced to land in the water.  There were three survivors;  Lieutenant Jack Toole, the copilot; (well I guess I answered my own question) Staff Sergeant LaMica, the flight engineer; and Technical Sergeant Dyer, the radar operator.  This accident was the first of several that plagued the Snoopers due to the heavy loads that they were forced to carry and the very long missions that they were assigned.  The engines were required to produce much more than specified power on take off and they would fail at times that made it impossible for the pilots to recover control."
 
Interestingly, I noticed your Dad's rank as Tech Sgt.  Upon navigation training my father was commissioned 2nd Lt. and then attended radar training.  I think his MOS is "radar observer".  Wonder if it is different and if so how?
 
Thanks.
 
Karen (Russell) Sparks

My Dad always referred to himself as "radar operator", not observer, and he was a tech sgt, which I think was an E-5 (??).  As mentioned above, he thought he was headed to OCS when he was picked out for radar school.  After radar training, he flow out of Langley on antisub patrols over the Atlantic in 1943 - I don't know how many missions.  I recall he talked about flying in a B-18 early on and then they transitioned to a B-25.  I know the B-18 (Bolo I think) was an odd plane, but that early in the war I could see it being used for antisub missions.
 
My Dad said he liked the B-25 because it had plenty of power and the engines ran smoothly etc.  He said the B-24s were "lumbering" and barely made it into the air.
 
He always contested the written accounts of his crash because he said they had been airborne for a good while, enough for him to get the radar dome down.  On the other hand, chances of recovery too far out would have been minimal I would think flying northwest from Munda.   It is of course possible given the trauma of the crash that his memory if faulty, but his notion that the radar dome tore the air frame in half allowing him to float free then becomes probematic.
 
He told me that the daylight B-24s would raid Truk once a week and it was at the extreme range of the B-24.  They took a Snooper B-24 along with them to navigate clear of storms, as radar could be tuned to pick up clouds.  Dad said the Snooper on those missions had never once come back to base.  Again, his memory could be questioned about this, but he recalls waiting for his crew to fly that mission where he recalls thinking that would be it.  He said the optimists among them thought the war might be over in 1948. 

I realize I am replying to an old thread, but I just came across this while doing a search for my Uncle Izzy - Isadore G. LaMica, who is talked about in the previous threads.  My father is Isadore's brother and is now 74, he was about 10-12 years younger tahn Isadore.  I would love to be contacted by the person who's father was saved by him!  I would love to hear more about the uncle who was only in his early 20s when he died and whom I never knew.
 
Thank you.

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ORIGINAL: PJak5

I realize I am replying to an old thread, but I just came across this while doing a search for my Uncle Izzy - Isadore G. LaMica, who is talked about in the previous threads.  My father is Isadore's brother and is now 74, he was about 10-12 years younger tahn Isadore.  I would love to be contacted by the person who's father was saved by him!  I would love to hear more about the uncle who was only in his early 20s when he died and whom I never knew.

Thank you.

 
I was in email contact with a Navy Cmdr Arly Lamica who was also Izzy's nephew a while back.  I had some computer issues and some other items and lost contact.   I mailed Arly copies of photos I have of the crew, one of which shows my Dad without a shirt on, which he never did - his shirt was covering one of the radar-radio antennae that was secret in the photo.  I know the main radar took the place of the belly turret and was a heavy dome that my Dad rolled down by hand when they were airborne.  He recalls doing this before the crash and would not have done this were they not at cruising altitude, so he disputes the official recount of the crash.  He insists they were downed by enemy fire and was finally awarded the Purple Heart, the second in my immediate family.
 
I think I have retold about everything told to me about all this that I can recall other than some personal rememberings.  My Dad is still alive and will be 90 in December of this year. 

Arly (Arlington) is my cousin.  His father, my father and Izzy were brothers (along with many others!).  I would very much like to have copies of the pictures you sent to Arly (and I would be more than happy to pay you for them !), since he lives in CA and I live in NY and we have lost touch over the years.  I have one photo now of the entire crew that was e-mailed to me by someone else and that's the only photo I have of Uncle Izzy.  I will send you an e-mail with my mailing address if you can provide me the photos.  I would also like to talk with you more about Izzy, if I may. 
 

I have been following this thread with interest.   I believe that my father was in the 868th based on an address an old army buddy has. This friend was with him earlier in the war before the 868th was formed.   His name was Sgt Sam White, from Wheatland, Wyoming,  and he was an aircraft armorer.  One of the only friends from his unit I  that I remember him talking about was a man named Ed Scanlon who became a dentist near Chicago after the war.  I don't know if Ed was with him beofre or after the 868th was formed.  Can anyone on this board confirm that my father was indeed in the 868th?  Thanks   Kate Schaumann

Kate -
In my Book Snoopers by Stephan Perrone:
One of the original 868th Crews was Col. Dolans Crew.
2Lt. John Scanlon was on this Crew. His Friend ?
Mike

Mike:
 
According to Special Order #13 dated 9 August 43 the 10 original pilots assigned to the 5th Bomb Group (394th) were as follows: 
 
1) Major Foster
2) Major Carlson
3) Capt Zinn
4) Capt Reynolds
5) Capt Lehti
6) 1st Lt Easterling
7) 1st Lt Rockwood
8) 1st Lt Brown
9) 1st Lt Martus
10) 1st Lt Tillinghast
 
These 10 pilots and/or replacements became the 868th beginning Jan of '44. 
 
Col. Dolan is not one of them.  I believe Jim Pope was a Navigator of Col. Dolan.  He appears  (Jim Pope) on the Special Order on Zinn's crew but there is no Scanlon so I cannot conclude that Zinn took Dolan's crew.  Can you elaborate on what Perrone says? 

Romeo -
Page 12 " In the Beginning " by Dr. Vince Splane
A Cadre of 42 men formed 6 Crews to ferry B - 18s to
Duncan Field - then MIT , Boston for training.
Col. Dolan in Command.
Col. Dolans Crew -
2Lt. John Scanlon
2Lt. James Pope
2Lt. Francis Boykin
T/Sgt. Ray Elliot
S/Sgt. Marshall Smith
Sgt. William Hillis
Mike 

I read about this crew in some information I got about the First Sea Search Attack Group.  Col. Dolan was in charge of the whole group.