Hot!A couple of questions.

I have a couple of questions regarding B-17 crews, aircraft, and markings. As a point of reference, the following questions arose after I found my Dad's crew photo on the 91stBG website. The A/C was "Gypsie" 44-8324 LL R. I know quite a bit about the aircraft and precious little of Dad's experiences.
 
How soon after a crew was assigned a specific tail number was their crew photo taken, generally speaking?
 
In the photo, there is a black painted arrow beneath the pilots side window, extending to the trailing edge of the forward stationary window. There are vertical bombs painted on this black arrow stripe, 38 of them actually. What do they represent? Also, below those and directly beneath the pilot's sliding window, at about the same level as the control access door are two more vertical bombs and what appears to be a partial bomb. I took these to represent missions, but I'm not sure.
 
Is there a database somewhere that would show where and when a particular aircraft was delivered for service?
 
There are gaps in the missions Dad went on, sometimes weeks, even a month or so, at other times they might be several days in a row. How was who flew when decided? Sometimes Dad or other members of his crew would show up on the load lists for other aircraft. Was this volunteered or by assignment?
 
Thanks for any help
 
Frank Drake  AKA sonofatailgunner

From Roger Freeman's The B-17 Flying Fortress Story:
 
B-17G 44-8324 was delivered to the AAF at Kearney, NE, on 10 Aug 44; Assigned to Albuquerque, NM, 15 Aug 44; Grenier, NH, 2 Sept 44; assigned to the 493rd BS/91BG Bassingbourn, England, 12 Sept 44; Flew 60+ missions; Returned to US 11 June 45; South Plains 16 June 45; RFC at Kingman, AZ, 4 Dec 45. 
 
This airplane was apparently renamed "Blood and Guts."  An illustration of this airplane can be found on the back cover of Squadron/Signal's B-17 in Action book. 
 
Squadron Code on aircraft was LL-R.
 
Good Luck
 
TM

A photograph of 44-8324 (as Blood N' Guts) can be found on page 52 of Squadron/Signal's B-17 IN ACTION. 

Frank,

Photo of a portion of Gypsie's nose attached.  The bomb symbols within the 'arrow' would represent individual mission sorties.  In this case, 38 bombing missions.  The lighter color bomb symbols painted lower down are a mystery to me.
 
Regrading when crew photos were taken I would expect that would be a moving target and be different from one Bomb Group to another.  Many times crews would be photographed alongside whatever aircraft was handy.   A crew would set up, have their picture taken then move away and the next crew would set up, have their picture taken, etc.  It was a lot easier to move the crews than to move the aircraft or the photographer.  You can go through the crew photos on Fold3 and see a number of places where 6 or 8 crew photos in a row were taken in front of the same nose art.  Also the theory of crews being assigned specific aircraft pops up here periodically.  In reality a crew flew whatever aircraft they were told to fly on any given mission.  While crews frequently flew many on their missions on a given aircraft and even gave that aircraft a name, it was not truly 'their' aircraft.  My father flew 20 of his 33 missions on a single aircraft but in that period while he was flying those missions 5 other crews also flew on that aircraft.
 
Hal
 
 

 
 

Regarding the question of crews flying together, especially crews that arrived later in 1944, were 'replacements' and individuals flew their early missions with other more experienced crews, filling in positions as needed on other aircraft and with other crews.  Once they had experienced combat they might be able to fly together as a crew, but were frequently assigned on an as needed basis.

A lapse between missions could have been caused by illness. In Johns case, there was a lapse of about three weeks between missions. John had wrote home, he had been grounded because of a severe cold. Years ago, Jim Peters of this forum wrote, a cold and high altitude did not mix too well on the bearer and was reason to ground an him untill recovery from same.. 

sonofatailgunner
SEE COMMENTS IN RED BELOW

There are gaps in the missions Dad went on, sometimes weeks, even a month or so, at other times they might be several days in a row. [Mostly that was not usual except for lead crews who flew intermitently.]
How was who flew when decided? [Squadron Operations assigned who flew, when and in which aircraft.]
Sometimes Dad or other members of his crew would show up on the load lists for other aircraft. [The crew was assigned to available aircraft, not necessarily any one A/C Crew members could be individually assigned to fill in in for absent members of another crew]
Was this volunteered or by assignment? [This was normally by assignment]
Thanks for any help

Frank Drake  AKA sonofatailgunner

Frank you have to remember the operational control was very business-like and not much like the daring-do of the movies, with individuals having much to do about assignments and aircraft.  Of course there was variability between Groups, Airforces and Theaters so we have to avoid absolute statements.
Bob

Thank you one and all for taking the time to respond to my questions.  The answers and comments you posted have been very helpful to me in the pursuit of my immediate goal, which is to identify all the crewmen shown in "Gypsie's" crew photo. So far, only my father and pilot Lt Holmes have been identified.
 
My thoughts were that since I have my fathers flight log, and the newly completed and transcribed 401st dailies, I could establish a date for the crew photo and compare it to the load lists, and  thus be on my way to matching names with faces.
 
This is what I know so far: A/C 44-8324 was delivered to the 91st BG on 12 Sept '44, Dad's first mission on Gypsie was the very next day, 13 Sept '44, hardly enough time for 38 missions.
 
From an annotation accompanying a photo of "Blood N' Guts in flight it is noted, "Originally named "Gypsie", she was renamed in early 1945".  Clearly Gypsie was renamed sometime after her 38th mission, as Blood N' Guts was spelled out in 2 ft tall, bright red letters extending from the lower fuselage to above the wing, just below the pilot's side window. Impossible to miss. Until I found, quite by accident, the photo below, I had never heard of Gypsie. Dad had always told me 'His plane' was Blood N' Guts, and indeed,  that was the name emblazoned on the back of his A-2 jacket, in which he was laid to rest in 1981.
 
So, it's back to the dailies for me. I will count 38 missions from A/C 44-8324's first mission and  try to narrow down names on the load lists to match with faces in the crew photo, and from there search for living crew members, or surviving descendents.
 
Thanks again everyone,
 
Frank 
 
P.S. When I have completed this, I will start over with the next crew of 'unknowns'. Sadly, it seems I won't have far to look. None should be forgotten.
 
 

Frank,
I'm a little confused by the time line.  Does your father's flight log include the dates of his missions and the specific aircraft he flew on each mission?  I have two questions rolling around in my head, first if the aircraft was assigned to the 91st on Sept 12th I would think it unlikely that it would be flown on a combat mission the next day.  If it was flown in from the States it would need a complete inspection, servicing, etc. before flying a mission.  Even if it came from a local depot it would still need an inspection and the recording of any equipment aboard.  The second thing, if assigned Sept 12th it would probably take until sometime in January to accumulate the 38 missions shown in the photo and the name Blood N' Guts would have been painted on sometime after that.  Does your father's flight log provide the total number of missions flown and the date of the last mission?  Again my point of reference is my father's B-17 which arrived at his base on Sept 13th, the day after Gypsie arrived at the 91st, and didn't fly it's first combat mission until 11 days later   That aircraft took until January 20th to accumulate 38 missions like the photo of Gypsie shows.
Hal

Hal...There WAS one instance where a new replacement  aircraft was sent on the next day's mission...the 2nd BG 5th Wing, 15th AF, had this happen...one entire squadron of the 2nd BG was lost on a mission...the story is told in a book by Melvin McGuire and Robert Hadley, called Bloody Skies....Melvin had arrived on a replacement B-17, and the aircrew was told to immediately get thier gear off the aircraft, as it was needed for a mission the next day.
 
While living  in Phoenix, Arizona, I had made an acquaintance with the daughter of a B-29 bombardier/navigator, and she told me of a friend of hers,who lived in Sedona, Az....he had been shot down on that day when the entire squadron had been shot down.
 
I agree, this was an unusual happening, but, it helps to explain why some aircraft were not marked  in the Bomb group and squadron markings..painting markings took at least one to two days to paint the bomb group and squadron markings...also... some aircraft made only one or two missions prior to being lost on a mission.
 
Jim :-)

Hal,
 
The info I have on a/c 44-8324's arrival in Bassingbourn is from Tony Mireles post below:
 
" From Roger Freeman's The B-17 Flying Fortress Story:
 
B-17G 44-8324 was delivered to the AAF at Kearney, NE, on 10 Aug 44; Assigned to Albuquerque, NM, 15 Aug 44; Grenier, NH, 2 Sept 44; assigned to the 493rd BS/91BG Bassingbourn, England, 12 Sept 44; Flew 60+ missions; Returned to US 11 June 45; South Plains 16 June 45; RFC at Kingman, AZ, 4 Dec 45. "
 
I know the '493rd BS' part is in error, so the 12 Sept 44 arrival date could be wrong as well. I haven't personally seen Roger Freeman's book so I'm not 100% sure.
 
What I am sure about is the date of the a/c's first mission as listed in the 401st dailies and substantiated in my fathers flight log.
 
13 September 1944 – Mission to Lutzkendorf

A/C 44-8324 LL R  "Gypsie"  (Later renamed "Blood N' Guts")

 P 2nd Lt. Holmes, Thomas M. O-764021
LL-R CP 2nd Lt. Edwards, Wesley L. O-770604
NAV 2nd Lt. Politzer, Lawrence M. O-720006
BOMB 2nd lt. Davis, Edward L., Jr. O-577307
ENG Top Turret Sgt. Jones, Earl L. 32757458
GUN Ball Turret Sgt. Sayre, Ralph H. 33709461
R-O Radio Gun Sgt. Moshier, Frederick A. 32433429
A-E Waist Guns Sgt. Stafford, Jack B. 18132661
GUN Tail Guns Sgt. Drake, Francis E. 20953219
 
I added the a/c's name(s), apart from that the load list is verbatim from the dailies. Dad's flight log lists date, pilot, and target. No tail numbers. It seemed odd to me too and I was counting on a comment calling it to question. Perhaps someone  can verify the data from the Freeman book.
 
Thanks Hal
 
Frank

sonofatailgunner


I know the '493rd BS' part is in error, so the 12 Sept 44 arrival date could be wrong as well. I haven't personally seen Roger Freeman's book so I'm not 100% sure.

Sure is.  I didnt catch it--just copied it and hit send.  Sorry for the error. 
 
TM. 

Sept 12 is what the book says, Bits & Pieces also gives the same date.  While these reference books are useful and generally correct, they are known to contain errors.  Just seems unlikely to me that a new aircraft would be sent out before the mechanics have had a chance to give it a good check out.  Next day doesn't even give them time to paint the Group and Squadron identifiers. 
Excerpt from Freeman below.
44-8324 Del Kearney 10/8/44; Albuquerque 15/8/44; Grenier 2/9/44; Ass 401BS/91BG [LL-R] Bassingbourn 12/9/44 GYPSIE; {60+m} RetUS Bradley 11/6/45; Sth Plains 16/6/44; RFC Kingman 4/12/45. re-named BLOOD 'N GUTS.

Given that exceptions do occur to the normal acceptance procedures due to operational requirements --
Normally anytime a plane is reassigned the receiving organization is required to perform an "acceptance inspection" to insure the airworthness of the incoming airplane
Having no specifics on the details of the object of this discussion, I can only draw on my knowledge of B-29 movements
Herington AAFB, a staging base for B-29's being deployed overseas, had an 'acceptance inspection' for incoming aircraft  that came close to mirroring a 100 hour inspection.  I have a copy 
of what 2nd Air Force (Herington) deemed necessary for the inspection of an incoming plane, and, based on my flight line experience  - said inspection would take, at a minimum, two or three days.
A notable exception to this requirement was the arrival on Saipan of the F-13 "Tokyo Rose"  in October, 1944.  With a desperate need for photos of Japanese cities for misson planning purposes, the crew of Tokyo Rose took off without crew rest or an incoming airpane inspection and took literally thousands of photos.
 
Bob Mann
 

I am inclined to agree with Hal and Bob that it wouldn't have been possible to receive a B-17 on one day and send it on a mission the next day. Clearly something is amiss here. It could be simply that 44-8324 arrived in Bassingbourn several days prior to being officially assigned to the 401st BS, on Sept 12, during which time it was inspected and painted. I don't know the logistics of receiving aircraft in preparation for assignment, but I will inquire into the procedure in the ground command forum.
 
Thanks
 
Frank

To whom it may concern regarding the receipt of an aircraft one day, and sending it out on a mission the following day....I have learned over the years to not pass judjment on a seemingly impossible story.
 
There are several stories of B-17 tail gunners (from several 8th AF and 15th AF bomb groups) riding the remmnants of a B-17 (about 20 feet of the iail section) to the ground and living to tell of the event.
 
There is another story of a navigator (which was verified) who survived a 88 MM shell passing between his writing hand and his body, in the process punching a hole in the nose section, through his navigator table, (while he was wrting in his logbook).....through his log book, and finally leaving the nose through a hole in the top of the nose section prior to exploding above the B-17....again, this WAS verified by the debreifing officer returning to the aircraft and finding the story verifiied by the holes in the aircraft nose and a similar hole in the navigator's logbook.
 
This occurred in my bomb group and I personnaly witnessed the debreifing officer along with the respective persons involved get up from the debreifing table and return to the aircraft.
 
I would suggest being cautious about leaping to a conclusion, when the facts say otherwise.
 
I might add that this kind of comment usually comes from someone who has never seen combat...but the stories abound about seemiingly impossible feats.
 
Jim :-) 

    There was a T/G in the 94th BG who rode the tail section down and evaded capture and returned. The others perished as they could not get out due to the centrigal force. A couple other T/G's on different A/C were able to put on their parachute and escape the tail section. However there were some who were found dead in the tail section after it hit the ground. I assume it depended on where the tail section was severed at as to whether it "floated" down or spun down.
    There are photos of 94th BG formations with some A/C with no squadron markings and some with no bomb group designation days after they were "Officially" assigned. Painting A/C was a low priority and the availability of paint was also a factor. When crews arrived to the 94th they were assigned by VOCO order number (verbal order of the commanding officer), PAC par, etc. but were not "Officially" assigned for 2 to 4 days when they were noted in the Special Orders. Likewise an A/C could have arrived earlier but not have "Oficially" been there.
    I have seen varying dates on the "assignment" dates of some A/C depending on the source. Ground crew personnel have told me in the past that regulations were broken here and there as the priority was to put A/C in the air. If an A/C flew in there, it should be able to fly a mission if really needed. My dad told me that if an A/C was thought to be able to get airborn and they needed it they used it regardless if it was transfered from another BG or a new arrival.  They did not have time to go through "proper procedure" at times.
     Nothing was set in stone and there were variances among bomb groups.
     Jim said it best.
    Regards, marc
   
   
   

In the Spring of 1990, I served on a B-17 Panel with a tail gunner named Wes Borgeson. He started his comments by saying, " I completed 1/2 mission during the war ". His B-17 was shot down on his first mission, exploded in the air at 25,000 feet leaving him unconscious in the tail section which he rode to the ground.. He woke up 5 days later in a German POW hospital.

I've read stories about tailgunners survivng, floating down in severed tails, in a few differant books. Two of the books were from army ground personel and their experiences. I know the one book was from an army officer who did tank recovery for the armored units. He said a flight of forts was passing overhead, one blew up and he watched the tail float down pretty close to his position. Him and a few others pulled the tailgunner out, alive.

They are called Wreckage Riders.  Check this link for a list of known events:
 
 
www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/wreckage.html
 
TM
 
 

My father's only crew photo was taken in front of "Our Baby" during training at Dalhart, Texas.  My dad remembered one crew after another taken their places in front of this plane to have their picture taken.  No crew photo was taken once they reached their assigned base -- the 96th Bomb Group.  And, this crew never had their own plane.
 
On May 12, 1944 my dad was flying in A/C 42-107123.  The MACR states:  "This was a new A/C and the numbers of the motors and the guns had not been taken off for the records."    So, it seems that when a plane was needed time was not always taken to make sure all information was recorded before it was sent into combat.
 
In the same way, perhaps your father's plane was flown the day after it arrived on base.
Laura