Hot!Bomber Abandoned 30 September 1944 England

I wonder if anyone can identify a possible American bomber which was abandoned over England on September 30th 1944 but promptly carried on by itself and ended up over flying Ireland and crashing off the west coast.  Irish newspapers carried basic small articles on the subject during early October 1944.
 
It might have been an RAF aircraft but I'll about that on an RAF forum.
 
Any suggestions welcome.
regards
 
Denis

Some mention of the incident in American newspapers:
 
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=QAQiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2E4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=1860,242614&dq=fortress+bombs+eire&hl=en
 
I hope the links work
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Gn5IAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FYMMAAAAIBAJ&pg=5147,62477&dq=fortress+bombs+eire&hl=en
 
Not that they tell us much.
 
if this was a bomber on an operational mission, and was abandoned over England.  It won't have a MACR and will it have a Crash report I wonder?  I'll check the AAIA database again.

This is mentioned in the 401st history, but I don't think it was a 401st ship.  It does say it happened in the morning and it does seem to be a US plane.
http://www.401bg.org/Site/History/mission_sum.asp?mid=151
 
Using the 8th AF website for 30 September 44, we might infer the plane was at least involved in the same mission as the 401st Bomb Group that day, which was to Munster.    This link gives us the Bomb Groups involved in that mission.  Maybe something is mentioned in one of the group histories. 
http://www.hellothomas.org/eighthaf/get_one_mission.php?mission_id=1569
 
Neither aviationarchaeology.com or accident-report.com lists a B-17 "accident" on  30 Sept 44.  

Cheers R,
anything at all to narrow down the search area.  I'll get on it.

Dennis,
Now this story is interesting.  Is this actually the same  event?  
 
http://www.thewarillustrated.info/219/now-it-can-be-told-ghost-forts-sent-to-crash-on-heligoland.asp
 
 
I have also found references to a plane from the 452nd  BG (so much for my Munster theory)  with a pilot by the name of Eccles that may have been abandoned over the Wash on 30 Sept 44.  I'll see what else I can find.  Details at the moment are sketchy.  This was discussed over several pages of a link on 12oclockhigh with seemed to discuss both the Aphrodite plane (may have happened on 14 Sept 44,) and the Eccles plane (which may have been on 30 Sept 44).  
 
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=3888
 
The problem with the "Eccles" (Clifton W Eccles) story is that we also have this link, which seems to imply something different.
http://forum.armyairforces.com/Aircraft-Tail-4338201-m59884.aspx
 

I just discovered my good friend Martin's posting on teh TOCH forum,. so I've only really repeated an oft told story on the internet again!!
 
It looks like the S/N of aircraft is lost in the mists of time, but we know where it came from and roughly who was on board.
 
Thanks for solving this for me.

A Possibility?
B-17 # 42 - 39805
96th BG
9/30/44 - All Bits and Pieces lists is Failed to Return ,
 No other Info.
Freeman's B-17 Historys Book lists This:
Lost Atlantic enroute to UK   MACR # 664
No other Info.
Could someone with Access to Fold3 check MACR.
Mike
 
 
   
                
                

Mike,  MACR 664 is on fold3.com  Not much information except they have the date as 30 Sept 43 (not 1944)  and state it was lost probably due to engine failure on a flight from Gander to Preswick.  The entire crew is listed KNB. 

Gentlemen:
 
The two aircraft I have in my database as lost on 30-Sep-44, that were not specifically categorized as battle losses are:
 42-39805 initially assigned to the 96th BG and lost in the North Atlantis en-route from Gander, Newfoundland to Prestwick, Scotland. This was documented on MACR 664. 10 Killed.
The other was 43-38201 assigned to the 452BG, squadron unknown. RTB suffered battle damage on mission to Beilefeld. 9RTD. This is what Freeman had originally.
 
Dave Osborne's latest update in his FORTLOG has something totally different. That entry states that 42-38201 "2nd Patches" was delivered to Denver on 13-Jan-44; transferred to Lakeland on 1-Feb-44; transferred to Morrison 9-Feb-44; assigend to the 482BG/815BS at Tortorella 30-Mar-44; transferred to 99BG/346BS at Tororella 31-Mar-44, then transferred to 429BS; flew 41 missions, 2 Killed 8 RTD when ship skidded on takefoff on airfield PSP and crashed into a railway embankment and broke up. Aircraft was on mission to Pardubice, Czechoslovakia, salvaged on 24-Aug-44.  From that entry it sounds as if this aircraft was in either 12th AF or 15AF and probably not the one we're looking for. Not sure why the disparity between Freeman and Osborne as these two gentlemen collaborated on the "B-17 Flying Fortress Story". It appears that Dae Osborne might ahve obtained the record card and additional information from 99BG records as to what happened.
 

In 1st post Dennis stated " An American Bomber "
Abandoned. Could it be a B-24?
I found this in Bits and Pieces:
B-24 # 42 - 51342
389th BG
9/30/44 - Failed to Return
No other Information Listed
I'm Emailing 389th BG Historian for Info.
Mike
 

I do think the plane lost was from the 452nd with Eccles as pilot. It may not have  been called Melancholy Baby with tail number 43-38201.
Here is part of  the crew as listed on a prior forum link.
Pilot:  1Lt Clifton W Eccles 
Co-Pilot:  2Lt Victor M. Danos 
N:  2Lt Joseph A. Modrick 
B:  2Lt William D. Blades 
 
When you search for Eccles you come up with an interesting post by a military historian, Charles Jarrels here:
http://genforum.genealogy.com/eccles/messages/358.html
 
Jarrells was seeking to make contact with Eccles:
"Military historian seeking to contact Clifton W. Eccles, or his next of kin. Clifton Eccles was a B-17 bomber pilot with the 452nd Bomb Group of the 8th AF during WWII.
Researching the loss of his aircraft "Melancholy Baby" on 30 Sept 1944."
 
Jarrells had the same post searching for Danos.  As far as I can tell he never got a response.  Eccles remained in the Air Force, served in Korea and Vietnam and retired as a Lt Col.  He died in 1988.
http://www.locategrave.org/l/1088540/Clifton-W-Eccles-CO
 
When I search for Modrick, I come up with a couple of interesting bits.  When Modrick retired there is a nice biographical write up:
http://articles.mcall.com/1985-11-14/news/2498942_1_lansford-high-school-retire-county-government
 
"He enlisted in the Army Air Corps on Dec. 26, 1941, and took his basic training at Jefferson Barracks, Mo., received advanced flight training at Spence Field, Ga., and airplane mechanic training in Nebraska. He went overseas to Deophen Green, England, where he was assigned to the 452nd Bombardment Group, a B-17 heavy bomber unit. Before leaving the war zone, he flew 35 combat missions. He became a member of the Caterpillar Club when he was forced to bail out of his plane over Belgium."

The above talks about one bailout over   Belgium, HOWEVER
when he died in 1993 Modrick's obit has an interesting line:
http://articles.mcall.com/1993-11-16/news/2947600_1_passport-agency-passport-application-acceptance-program-american-veterans
   "He was a 1st lieutenant, serving as a navigator in the 452nd bomber crew during World War II, where he was forced to bail out twice. He was awarded the Presidential Citation, the Air Medal with five oak leaf clusters, and the European, African and Middle Eastern Theatre campaign ribbons. He was a member of the Caterpillar Club, a group of veterans shot down during the war."
 
The  bail out twice is the key.  I think the 2nd  bailout was over the Wash.   
 

Thanks guys,
I've not checked in here in a day or so.  I'll see if I can find any of those men or their families.

Can not be 42-39805 lost in 1943:
 
42-39805 (c/n: ) Accepted: 3 September 1943 - Lockheed Aircraft Co (Plant A-1), Burbank, California
                Assigned: 5 September 1943 - ATC / 6th Ferrying Group - (Long Beach AAF)     
                Assigned: 22 September 1943 - 2nd AF / 17th BTW - 518 HQABSQ (Pilot Training - 4 Engine) - (Grand Island AAF)
                                Replacement crew training - no specific unit assigned
                                Ferried: 30 September 1943 - (RCAF Gander - RAF Presque)(Pilot: 2Lt Nathan Fritzhand)
                                                Thompson Provisional Group
                                Ditched (class 5): Thursday, 30 September 1943 @ 0330 hrs (Engine failure) - Atlantic Ocean (775 miles SW from Reykjavík), Reykjavík -  Iceland (54°0'0"N / 32°8'59"W)
                                                (Pilot: 2Lt Nathan Fritzhand) - 10 KIA (MACR 664) - SOC.
 
43-38201 assigned: 8th AF / 452nd BG / 731st BS
                Landing accident (class 4): Friday, 29 September 1944 - RAF Deopham Green, Norfolk - England
                                (Pilot: Herman R Beuchat)
 
not 42-38201 - but 43-38201 crashed one day to early
 
B-17 loss's for this date:
 
42-31077
43-37632
43-38538
43-38037
43-38154
43-38480
43-38115
 
Three involved in a Mid-air collision over Germany - all lost over Germany
 
Now the B-24 mentioned:
 
B-24J
42-51342 assigned: 8th AF / 445th BG / 703rd BS
            MIA: 27 September 1944 - Germany
                        (Pilot: Joseph E Johnson) - (MACR 9392) - SOC.


Cheers
 

re: http://www.thewarillustrated.info/219/now-it-can-be-told-ghost-forts-sent-to-crash-on-heligoland.asp
 
Now the one article mentions was a Project Aphrodite aircraft - highly doubtful !!!!!
 
Date                  Target            Baby                                                                                       Crew
04. Aug. 44      Watten             B-17F 42-30342 (ex- 95th BG "Taint A Bird)                 1Lt F. H. Pool, S/Sgt P. Enterline
04. Aug. 44      Siracourt           B-17G 42-39835 (ex-351st BG "Wantta Spa")             1Lt W. Fisher (KAS), T/SGT E. Most
04. Aug. 44      Wizernes          B-17F 42-3461 (ex-92nd BG)                                        1Lt F. L. Houston, T/Sgt W. D. Smith
04. Aug. 44      Mimoyecques    B-17F 41-24639 (ex-91st BG "The Careful Virgin")       1Lt C. A. Angel, T/Sgt C. A. Parsons
06. Aug. 44      Watten             B-17F 42-30212 (ex-388th BG "Quarterback")             1Lt J. P. Andrecheck, T/Sgt R. Healy
06. Aug. 44      Watten             B-17G 42-31394 (ex-379th BG)                                    1Lt. J. Sollars, T/Sgt H. Graves
12. Aug. 44      Mimoyecques    PB4Y-1 32271 (Rufzeichen T-11)                                  Lt. J. Kennedy (USN) (KAS), Lt. W. J. Willy (USN) (KAS)
03. Sep. 44   Helgoland            B-24D 42-63954                                                                    Lt R. Spalding (USN)
11. Sep. 44      Helgoland         B-17F 42-30180 (ex-96th BG "Guzzlers")                     1Lt R. W. Lindahl (KAS), 1Lt D. E. Salles
14. Sep. 44      Hemmingstedt  B-17F 42-30363 (ex-96th BG "Ruth L III")                    1Lt M. P. Hardy, 1Lt E Hadley
14. Sep. 44      Hemmingstedt  B-17G 42-39827 (ex-306th BG)                                     1Lt W. G. Haller, 2Lt. C. L. Shinault
15. Oct. 44       Helgoland        B-17F 42-30039 (ex-384th BG "Liberty Belle")              1Lt R. Betts, 2Lt M. Garvin
15. Oct. 44       Helgoland        B-17G 42-37743 (ex-94th BG)                                       1Lt W. Patton, 1Lt J. W. Hinner
30. Oct. 44       Helgoland        B-17F 42-30066 (ex-100th BG "Mugwump")                  1Lt G. A. Barnes, 1Lt R. McCauley
30. Oct. 44       Helgoland        B-17F 42-3438 (ex-96th BG)                                          1Lt W. C. Gaither, 1Lt W. M. Dunnuck
05. Dec. 44      Herford            B-17G 42-39824                                                             1Lt T. H. Barton, 1Lt F. E. Bruno
05. Dec. 44      Herford            B-17F 42-30353 (ex-95th BG "Ten Knights In The Bar Room")         1Lt R. F. Butler, 1Lt K. T. Waters
01. Jan. 45       Oldenburg        B-17F 42-30178 (ex-95th BG "Darlin' Dolly")                 2Lt J. Stein, 1Lt E. Morris
01. Jan. 45       Oldenburg        B-17F 42-30237 (ex-397th BG "Stump Jumper")        Capt J. Hodson, 1Lt L. Lawing

My father was the tail gunner on Lt Eccles aircraft 43-38201 "Melancholy Baby".   On Sept 30, 1944 an all call mission
to Bielfeld Germany. They developed engine trouble with the number 3 engine causing them to taxi back to maintenance for repair. After checking the engine they took off and while climbing to altitude, the number 3 engine caught fire. Lt Eccles gave the order to bail out at 3000ft. He placed the aircraft on autopilot and bailed out. Shortly after leaving the aircraft, the fire went out and it took a bank back over England. The RAF were immediately dispatched to "escort" the aircraft across the country and Ireland. As she was going out to sea she was shot down by the RAF. Lt Eccles was reassigned to the Copilot position and the crew was broken up and transferred to different Bomb groups. My father was transferred to Italy, 15th Air Force 463 Bomb Group, 815th Squadron flying out of  Sterparone Italy. My farther was shot down on March 14, 1945 while on a bombing mission to Almasfuzito, Hungary. He survived the war and passed away on Memorial Day, May 29, 1989.
 

Hi there, welcome to the board. I wonder could you possibly tell us your fathers name and did he pass on too you the names of more of the crew members??
Thanks for posting
Dennis

Dennis,
     The entire crew is as follows;
Pilot     2Lt  Clifton Eccles
Copilot 2Lt  Victor M Dumas
Nav     2Lt   Joseph A Modrick
Bdier   2Lt  Edward L Palmer
TT       S/Sgt  Douglas E Edwards
Radio   S/Sgt  Paul C Babb
BT       Sgt     Norton J. Hoette
WG     Sgt      Edmond J lacy
TG      Sgt      Jack A Triplett
 
My father was Jack A Triplett. His enlistment name was Amburse J Triplett Jr.
I have researched this pretty thoroughly and have confirmed this with several other sources. I have no reason to doubt it being correct. One source is the load list for that day and mission.
 

After answering you I went back and rechecked the load list, There is a hand written list below the type written crew list which could mean some possible last minute changes. It appears that William Blades may have been the Bombadier and someone named Wilson was the Top Turret.  The hand written list has Eccles, Blades, Dumas, Modrick Wilson, Triplett, Lacy, Edmonds, Babb. It also list their individual Serial numbers. Let me know if you need them.

That is super, thanks so much.
 
I would love to have the serial numbers as well, just to keep the same format of my website listing for other crews.
 
If you can transcribe them that would be great or if you can scan the page and email to me at irishwarcrash@yahoo.com
 
This is wonderful to have this information at last as such much myth and error gets repeated on the internet nowadays.
 
My interest lies in the fact the aircraft flew back over Ireland after it was abandoned.
My website is:  www.skynet.ie/~dan/war/crashes.htm
 
Thanks for your help.
 
Dennis

Unit Load List, dated 30 September 1944 confirms the crew.  Hand written names confirm crew members that bailed out and were returned to duty. 
My question is why did they break up the crew?  Officers remained in 452nd BG and NCO's sent to 15th AF.
 

Sorry Howard,
when you say the load list confirms the crew, Mr. Triplett above has given two lists as such.
What do you take to be the correct crew list for this bail out?
 
Looking forward to seeing this page if possible.
 
Typed List
Pilot     2Lt  Clifton Eccles
Copilot 2Lt  Victor M Dumas
Nav     2Lt   Joseph A Modrick
Bdier   2Lt  Edward L Palmer
TT       S/Sgt  Douglas E Edwards
Radio   S/Sgt  Paul C Babb
BT       Sgt     Norton J. Hoette
WG     Sgt      Edmond J lacy
TG      Sgt      Jack A Triplett
 
Hand written list
Eccles,
Dumas,
Modrick,
Blades,
Wilson
Edmonds
Babb
 
Lacy
Triplett
 
Cheers
 
Dennis

The serial numbers for " Melancholy Baby" 43-38201  are difficult to read . I will give you the ones I can read first followed by the ones I question.
 
Blades    757367
Dumas   555881
Modrick  737145
Wilson    37726273
Triplett   35769461
Lacy       14153106
Edmonds 18194181
Babb       035470
 
Eccles     769_63  Not sure of this one. I will continue to look.
These were all hand written at the bottom of the load list.

According to my dad, they broke the crew up because of the publicity the incident received. He felt that the they, The military, wanted to put this incident quietly away as quickly as possible. It received a lot of bad press between the British and the U.S. Forces. He said they were all questioned about the incident shortly after it occurred, then were transferred. I have him flying with the 452nd until Oct 15 1944.

As far as two list I can only speculate at this moment but there may have been changes to the crew when they taxied back to maintenance for the repair. My Dad never mentioned anything about that. I will continue to investigate when I return home. I am presently in Maui until May 2.

1.  I show the following names on the typed Unit Load List:
      Eccles
      Dumas
      Modrick
      Blades
      Edwards
      Babb
      Wislson
      Lacy
      Tripplett
2.  Hand written on the unit Load Lists are the following names:
      Blades
      Dumas
      Eccles
      Modrick
      Wilson
      Tripplett
      Lacy
      Edward
      Babb
 
3.  If you would like me to scan and send via email, please PM your email address. 
4.  Please advise.
 
Thank you, Howard

I tried checking on some of these in the NARA files.
 
 18194191 Edwards, Douglas E,    OK       (note: 18194191 not 18194181) 
35769461  Triplett, Amburse J Jr   WV     
14153106   Lacy, Edmond A           KY        (note middle initial A not J)  
37726293 Wilson, Kennerd           MO         (note 37726293 not 37726273) 
35038470   Babb, Paul G         IN   (Note full serial number  and middle initial G)

Hello,
Its been a while since I visited this problem of "Melancholy Baby".
I recall that I asked way back of the possibilities of a B17 being in a landing accident and returned to ops for a mission the very next day.
From the Accident Report on 43-38201 (731st Squadron) it looks like it was a minor accident on the 29th.
Crew was - 
pilot: Capt. Beuchat, Herman R. O-801471
Co-Pilot: 2Lt. Wagoner, Charles J. O-1294942
Nav: 2Lt. O'Keefe, Francis G. O-723154
RadOp: T/sGT. Korosec, Joseph J. 35059116
Eng:T/Sgt. Mangun, Thurston P. 34666568
A/c on a local Training flight, Co-pilot raised landing gear instead of flaps.
Co-pilot was a pilot riding in the right seat and unfamiliarity with Co-pilot procedure was without doubt the determing factor.
Mangum's statement says "informed by Lt. Wagoner that the gear was down, switch in neutral, checked landing gear with hand crank(main & tail), checked ball turret and trailing antennae. I returned to the flight deck and reported to Lt. Wagoner that the gear was down, ball turret stowed and trailing antennae was in. A normal landing was made, except that on the landing roll the gear suddenly collapsed".
43-38201 was the last of a three a/c practice formation to land. About half way up the runway the gear collapsed, no 4 engine caught fire, a/c skidded aprox 100 yards on its belly about 800 yds from up-wind end of runway. No injuries. Ball Turret, Nose turret and propellers badly damaged. 4 photos of a/c included in report, one shows tail marking to be either "E+" or "F+" ? I would lean towards it being "F+".
 
"Missing Planes of the 452nd Bomb Group" 3rd edition by Ed Hinrichs has -
Page 110/111
Sept 29, 1944 No Mission
Plane 43-38201 Pilot error, on landing hit the wrong switch causing failure of landing gear. Plane damaged, crew OK.
Sept 30, 1944 - Bielefeld - Mission #141
I received this information from George Babb on Dec. 14, 1998.
Plane # 43-38201, "Melancholy Baby", 728th Squadron
( Crew listed as Eccles, Danos, Modrick, Palmer, Edwards, Babb, Lacy, Wilson and Triplett).
Max effort mission, had difficult time starting the aircraft, after leaving the hard stand had to return for repairs. When finally made successful take-off the #3 engine caught fire, At about 3000 feet pilot gave bailout order. All  bailout and land safe except two. The Co-pilot broke his ankle and the radio man suffered a back fracture, compression D12 L1. Both were hospitalized for months. The pilot, Navigator, Bombardier,finished their tour with different crews and all enlisted men were transfered to USAF in Italy.
This is followed by a transcript of the Indianapolis, Indiana Star Ghost Ship newspaper report. 
 
If the Ball turret was stowed what kind of dammage would it have received for it to be reported as being "badly dammaged" ? And so back to the question of how did she get to be back in action as it were the very next day ?
Alex 
 

Here is a link to the information Alex posted above, including the newspaper story about the
"Bomb Laden Ghost Ship".     Scroll to page 110.
 
 
Note that after the newspaper story, the book has these lines.  
"This plane was salvaged the next day.  This fact proves the above story is false."  
 
 Missing Planes Groups Of The 452nd Bomb Group - Page 110 - Google B

Hello,
Additionally -
Re: Capt. Beuchat, Herman R. O-801471.
From document on Flag 3.
"Organization: 301st Bomb. Sqn.   353rd Bomb. Gp. (? think it should have been 353rd Bomb Sqn, 301st Bomb Gp. ?)
Area: Cherbourg, France
Type of Plane: B-17  Nickname: "Dog Breath"
Mission: Bombing
Crew:
Herman R. Beuchat O-801471 2Lt.
Evertt S. Phillips O-751755 2Lt.
Arthur F. Miller O-809678 Capt.
Robert J. Davis O-751814 2Lt.
Jack R. Miller O-737199 2Lt.
Gordon A. Piland 33225199 S/Sgt.
James W. Whitted 38150654 Sgt.
Alden C. Petersen 19066102 S/Sgt.
David Fineman 1533552 Sgt.
Thomas R. Wiley 18208488 Sgt
Lawrence D. Kenning 37198870 S/Sgt"
 
Could be about MACR 15452 - 26th March 1944 B-17 - 301st Bomb Group.
 
So a/c nickname now known but serial number not as yet known.
301st's mission (mission number 240) this date was Steyr, Austria, ball bearing factory.
Another mystery to solve.
 
Alex
 
 

Hello Rolland,
Thank you for adding the 452nd Book link, I had not seen it.(have the book).
 
Question: I  have seen that in some Groups/Squadrons that an aircraft's nickname lived on / was used on more than one aircraft. i.e if say an aircraft named "Sweetie" was lost or taken out of use or transfered. Another fresh or new (perhaps) aircraft soon apeared with the nickname "Sweetie".
Is it at all possible that such a thing happened with "Melancholy Baby" ? and that the aircraft that Babbs and Triplett flew in on the 30th was not 43-38201 but another aircraft, serial as yet unknown, that had been (or would soon be by the crew) named "Melancholy Baby" ?
 
There are a reports in print that confirm the truth of this event as RAF and RN in the UK and Northern Ireland including Polish pilots (training in Mustangs in Northern Ireland if I recall correctly) as well as Eire AF pilots were sent in persuit of the unmand B17 which was last seen out over the Atlantic IIRC.
If I get the time I will look up these refs.
All for now
Alex

Hello All,
Here is some of the details that I received from Charles way back in 2004.

Hi Alex:
I think I have identified the aircraft, even have spoken to two men who were aboard it before being forced to bail out. Without question I know I have the right crew, but the identity of the a/c is a bit troublesome since I cannot prove without question I've got the right plane. I'm still working on that aspect of the story.
One other part of the puzzle I'm still working is the identity of the aircraft/units that attempted to intercept the bomber as it droned across the UK. By chance are you anywhere near enough to London that you could pop in to the PRO? I'm trying to confirm that Polish Spits from either 316 or 303 Sqns. found the aircraft, but were unable to shoot it down due to fears it might crash in a populated area. A quick look see in the ORB for those squadrons for 30 Sept 1944 should set the record straight pretty quickly.
I have spoken and corresponded with the FAA Seafire pilot who attempted to knock the Fortress out of the sky just as it crossed over Ireland. Again, I can prove this happened as I have a copy of his logbook page from that day. There was also a second Seafire from the same squadron that also intercepted the B-17, but was unarmed and could do nothing. I also have his logbook page as well.
One thing that might interest you is that according to the one of the bomber's crew, the UK press of the day was most unkind in their remarks about the US crew who abandoned the aircraft. One paper (Evening Standard?) even went so far as to say the crew should have sacrificed themselves if necessary by crashing the aircraft into the sea to have ensured the aircraft did not endanger the lives of those on the ground.
Anyway, that's where things stand.
cgj
 
 
AND
 

Alex:
 You are correct, no MACR was submitted since the crew was safely recovered.
 As for the crew, I've been in contact with the three who are still alive, as well as the families of all but one of those who've already passed away.  (The one whose family I can't find apparently died very soon after the war, and I've had no luck tracking down his family.)  Sadly, one of the surviving crew is quite mentally confused, but the other two survivors have been most helpful.  Same with the families I've been able to track down, they all knew the story of the runaway bomber as told to them by their loved one. 
 I'm quite skeptical about the Polish fighters having been based in NI, although I know Donal MacCarron made that claim in at least one of his books.  I've corresponded with a couple of Polish aviation historians who tell me they would be surprised if the Polish aircraft came from NI.  The Seafires I mentioned earlier were from NI, however.
 At this point, I'd prefer not to provide any info on the aircraft, at least until I can come up with more evidence to prove I have the correct B-17.  I'm waiting for some additional data from the USAF History Office, so hopefully that data will son be available.
 cgj
 
ALSO,
 
From 12 O'Clock High Forum:
 
"Tony Kearns 30/9/44 Crewless B17 Thu Feb 12, 2004 03:35 194.125.53.110
Hi Alex and all, This question was raised in September 2002 last by yours truly on this board. As always Alex you were your usual helpful self, I still have not been able to identify it.Alex I would advise caution on depending on accuracy in that book, written by a person who thinks RAAF stands for Royal Aux Air Force. I don't know where he arrived at the Polish fighters trying to catch it. A FAA Seafire observed it, but was ordered away as it had crossed into neutral territory. Four Irish Air Corps aircraft were involved in attempts to locate it, but we had no radar here. Regards Tony K

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• 30/9/44 Crewless B17 — Alex Smart, Wed Feb 11 23:41
  • 30/9/44 Crewless B17 — Tony Kearns, Thu Feb 12 03:35
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            • Crewlewss B-17 — cg jarrells, Mon Feb 16 07:01
              • Crewless B-17 — Tony Kearns, Mon Feb 16 16:06
                • Crewless B-17 — cg jarrells, Mon Feb 16 19:55
    • Ask my father — Andy Loates, Thu Feb 12 19:35
      • Thanks Andy (nm) (nm) — cg jarrells, Sat Feb 14 19:41
    • RAAF ? — Alex Smart, Thu Feb 12 05:39"

 
All for now
Alex

Hello again Howard and Capt174,
 
did you exchange scans of the load lists?  I too would be interested in seeing them due to the Irish connection.
 
regards
 
Dennis

Hi,
Re "Dog Breath" or is it "Dog Breath II" ?
http://forum.armyairforces.com/Kim-4231330-DOG-BREATH-w-m5179.aspx?high=Spain
and
http://forum.armyairforces.com/SACK-TIME-SIOUX-m171547.aspx?high=Dog+Breath+II
Alex
 

I have received a MSN list  for my father that reports the aircraft used on the 30th of Sept to Bielfeld as 42-38787. I have not as yet researched that aircraft but it may be the ill faded bomber in question. I will report back as information becomes available.

Joe Baugher's list of aircraft serial numbers lists 42-38787 as a Cessna AT-17B
 
First....RAAF stands for Royal AUSTRALIAN Air Force.....and second, the 301st BG was stationed in Italy in September 1944, in the 15th AF.
 
Let's be sure we all are on the same page.....:-)
 
Jim :-)

I twisted the numbers around on the aircraft used on Sept 30. The correct tail number for my father's plane was 43-37878. I don't see aircraft 43-38201 as one of his aircraft. I will check in to this aircraft and let ya'll know.

The following website gives this history for that aircraft:
http://www.8thafhs.com/db/get_one_acgroup.php?acgroup_id=30
B-17G43-37878n/a452BG730BS 43-37878 Delivered: Cheyenne 31/5/44; Kearney 16/6/44; Grenier 30/6/44; Assigned: 730BS/452BG Deopham Green 2/7/44; MIA Munster 4/10/44 Pilot:
 
 
And this old thread on this very forum also gives it lost in October 1944. 
http://forum.armyairforces.com/4337878-m95849.aspx
 
 
Capt174, can you qualify where you are getting this serial number from, it helps us to help you.  Are you getting it from your fathers log book or from elsewhere?
 
Also, Capt174, can I ask for a scanned copy of the load list info you quoted from before, we just like to have original copies of things to back up our information.  I hope you can provide, I can give a postal address if you can't electronically scan.
 
regards
 
Dennis

Dennis, Just emailed you the unit Load List information from 30 Sep 44.  Email address used was one listed as your contact email on your website.  Thank you, Howard

To try and bring some sense to this thread which has been confusing me a lot!
Howard did send me the 30 Sep load list for the 452nd. 
its shows 13 aircraft and crews among them Clifton Eccles crew on aircraft #878, i.e. the last three digits of the serial are 878.
The list of typed names on this report match identically the list of written names, there is no mention of Palmer or Hoette.
Capt174, were you referring to some other typed/hand written list?