Hot!Crew Info for B-17 42-30198

I am trying to identify the crew of B-17 42-30198 assigned to 388BG/536BS and listed as MIA on 26-JUL-43 mission to Hannover. No MACR was issued for this loss. Dave Osbourne's FORTLOG has this as Aubrey Bobbitt's crew BUT that is in error as MACR 3142 has Bobbitt's crew in 42-30208 also from the 388th and MIA on this same mission.
 
If someone has the Mission Report, there should be a Crew List in it. I would like to get name, rank, serial number, crew position and disposition (KIA, POW, RTD etc.) for each member of the crew, but I'll take whatever someone has.
Thanks.

Lee -
I have 388th BG History Book. I think we have a typo
and mix up in Information.
#42 - 30198 isn't in the Formation Diagram.
# 42 - 30189 is: Pilot - Lt. Jim B. Gunn  MACR # 3067
Lt. Bobbitt is in Formation Diagram in #42 - 30208
It's Time for my Dog to take me for a walk - check this out
and I will be back in the Morning.
Mike 
 
 

Mike:
 
There is something goofy with this 42-30198 aircraft. I'm thinking it wasn't even on this mission. I have the other five that were lost from the 388th and have all the crew information on those. The "Mighty Eighth War Diary" has 5 losses for the 388th and ONE DBR that ditched. It is possible that this is the one that ditched. However, if it didn't show up on the formation for that raid, then it probably didn't fly it and this is another instance where Roger Freeman and Dave Osborne have gotten their information in error. It's 18:15 here in Albuquerque and I have to get off because it's my birthday and my wife, grown kids, wives and husbands and grand-kids are screaming for me to come to dinner, See ya tomorrow.

Freeman/Osborne have 42-30198, with Bobbitt, shot down by enemy aircraft and crashing near Holtland, Germany with 5KIA and 5POW and reference MACR 3142.
They also have 42-30208, with unknown pilot MIA at Hannover, crashing into the North Sea with 10KIA and they reference MACR 3142 AGAIN.
 
What I have found is that MACR 3142 DOES have the Bobbitt crew listed BUT the aircraft is listed as 42-30208, with 5KIA 5POW. This I believe is correct, and it was 42-30208 that crashed near Holtland, Germany.
In another quirk - 42-30208 actually has TWO MACRS e.g. 3142 (ref: Fold3 image #37110733) and 5386 (ref: Fold3 image #28659389). Both have Bobbitt and crew.
 
Freeman's "Mighty Eight War Diary" HAS 5 MIA aircraft for 388BG on the Hannover raid. In the notes for that mission it says that 1 388BG B-17 ditched upon return off Overstrand and that the crew was rescued. With a note like that, it leads you to think that there were 6 aircraft lost but 1 NOT MIA because the crew was rescued.
 
However, after tossing this around, I think that the one that ditched off of Overstrand was one of the 5 MIA, and that it was in fact 42-30209 "Wee Bonnie", with pilot 1LT Adalburt D. Porter and crew. There were actually 11 men aboard this aircraft, one was a Photographer. What is interesting is that the SAME crew in a different aircraft, 42-30362 "Wee Bonnie II", with a different photographer was lost on 9-SEP-43 on a mission to Beaumont-Suroise, France with 6POW and 5EVD.
 
So unless someone can show some positive evidence that 42-30198 was EVER lost, I am going to remove it as a loss on the 26-Jul-43 raid to Hannover. This will leave me with the 5 MIA aircraft as:
42-30189 "La Chiquita" w/2LT Jim B. Gunn & crew 1KIA, 9POW with one of this DIC. MACR 3067;
42-30208 w/2LT Aubry M. Bobbitt & crew, 5KIA 5POW MACRS 3142 & 5386;
42-30209 "Wee Bonnie" w/1LT Adalburt D. Porter & crew, 11RTD;
42-30224 w/2LT Earl B. Horn & crew 3KIA 7POW MACR 3130;
42-30225 "Mr Yank" w/1LT John R. Denton, Jr. & crew 6KIA 4POW MACR 3131
 
 

From the 388th BG site they show the mission to Hanover with 21 aircraft, 6 lost & 2 aborted.  There are more details and each crew listed.  Also, the site lists the MACR as 3142, as Bobbitt's crew in aircraft 208.  Mike is right again.
 
Neale600

Neale:
 
388BG reports 6 AC MIA on 26-Jul-45? That is what I had originally. 388BG site has 42-30208 as ditching in the N. Sea with LT Porter. So, 42-30198 IS BACK!!! to haunt us AGAIN???? Two MACRS 4132 and 5386 have Bobbitt in 208. 338 site has him in 42-30198. 388 site DOES NOT have 42-30209 at all, and my research shows Lt Porter in 42-30209. SOMETHING is messed up here!!!! STILL!!!
 
42-30198 DOES NOT show up on the formation diagram. If that is the case THEN it didn't fly. I believe the 388BG website is in error.

Lee -
I sent you a PM with 388th BG Historian address.
Maybe he can clear this up.
I think the 6th Loss was Lt. Wick Crew. He and Beecham
Collided and the upper Tail was cut off on Wick's B-17.
There is nothing else about Wick. Beecham's B-17 and
Bliss's B-17 were both Shot up and landed at RAF Bases.
Mike
 

When I began trying to resolve 26-Jul-43 mission for the 388th I thought that they had 6 aircraft lost that day, but only 5 were recorded as MIA's because the crew of the 6th loss was rescued so it was not included as one of the MIA's even though it was lost.
I am thoroughly convinced that 42-30208 was LT Bobbitt's assigned aircraft and that he was flying it on 26-Jul-43. This is backed up by TWO MACRS 3142 and 5386 and the mission history of that aircraft on the 388th website. Although the 388BG mission summary has Bobbitt in 42-30198. I think the source of the mix-up between 42-30198 and 42-30208 resides with the data published by Roger A Freeman an Dave Osborne which has the same MACR 3142 assigned to both aircraft and the loss information confused.
I originally thought that 42-30198 WAS included in the 5 losses, however 42-30198 DOES NOT show up on the formation for the 388th for that raid. That is NOT ABSOLUTELY conclusive that it wasn't included in the formation, BUT strong evidence to think that it wasn't.
The SIX aircraft in view are:
42-30189 w/Gunn MACR 3067 1KIA, 9POW w/1 DIC
42-30198 w/ UNKNOWN, NO MACR
42-30208 w/Bobbitt - MACR 3142 &  5386 5KIA 5POW
42-30209 w/Porter - NO MACR 11RTD
42-30224 w/Horn - MACR 3130 3KIA 7POW
42-30225 w/Denton - MACR 3131 6KIA 4 POW
Of these six 42-30189, 42-30224, and 42-30225 are conclusive from their MACRS.
The preponderance of the evidence seems conclusive that Bobbitt was flying 42-30208. That leaves only 42-30209 and 42-30198 as questionable.
The 388BG website aircraft history for 42-30209 seems to verify that Porter was the pilot assigned to that aircraft and that he was flying it on 26-Jul-43.
We are then left with 42-30198.
Strangely enough the 388BG website aircraft history contains NOTHING concerning this aircraft although the Mission Summary says that it was being flown by Bobbitt. This is contradicted by their own data. In addition, 42-30198 does not show up on the formation diagram either. Also, the mission summary only mentions 5 crews, e.g. Porter, Denton, Horn, Bobbitt and Gunn. IF 42-30198 was LOST on the 26-Jul-43 mission and NOT flown by Bobbitt, there is no mention of her crew being KIA POW or RESCUED. I think 42-30198 has been eliminated from consideration.
 

Not sure if this helps any, but I believe my grandfather was on the Wee Bonnie - 42-30362 that was shot down over France. Him and I use to talk about the war, and I have some of his service documentation. He was a photographer. They had to bail after being hit. He was a POW for several years.
 
Alphonse Fulchino is his name.
 
Let me know if I can help.

Lee - did a Fred Bobbitt contact you about the mixup of 388BG entries? Because he left a long message on my 8th AF website.
Tom
 

Regarding:
42-30198 Delivered: Cheyenne 26/4/43; Smoky Hill 5/5/43; Cheyenne 14/5/43; Tinker 21/5/43; Kearney 27/5/43; Dow Fd 2/6/43; Assigned: 339BS/96BG [QJ-L] Andrews Fd 5/6/43; Snetterton 12/6/43; Transferred: 563BS/388BG Knettishall /43; MIA Hanover 26/7/43 Pilot: Aubrey Bobbitt, Co-Pilot: Pete McCahill, Navigator: Larry Wiegman, Engineer / Top Turret Gunner: Bob Claybourn, Tail Gunner: Bill Hart (5POW); Bombardier: Gordon Amos, Radio Operator: Jim Duncan, Ball Turret Gunner: Paul Warren, Waist Gunner: Larry Hopwood, Waist Gunner: Jim Langley (5KIA); Enemy aircraft, crashed Holtland, NE of Leer, S of Hesel, Germany. No MACR. GUZZLERS.
Source: B-17 Master Log - Dave Osbourne

The date, target, and the crew are correct, but the aircraft serial is not. Or the aircraft serial is correct but the wrong crew.

My father, Aubrey M. Bobbitt was the pilot of aircraft 42-30208 (a B-17F-90-BO) from the 563 BS (tail letter R) which was the lead squadron for the 388th. My father was flying position #2 in the lead element. For him and his crew it was mission 388-004.

Hit by flak inbound to the target with at least one KIA on board, he dropped his bombs and began the return trip to England. There is no information in Air Force records if he was straggling, but German records indicate that Captain Karl Becker shot my father down over Holtland, Germany (MARC: 3142 AND 5386) flying FW-190A-5 Werk #410005 "Yellow 14" of JG 1/3 (Stfkpt 3 / JG-1).

The German records referred to action as an HSS or Hesausschuss to mean a "shoot out." I have seen this expressed to mean the separation of the bomber from its formation.

Note: Captain Becker shot down two more B-17's on the 28th and 30th of July 1943 before being shot down and killed by a P-47 on 30 July 1943 over Hengelo, Holland. His aircraft was reported to have crashed at Arnhem, but his burial site is unknown.

Of my father's crew of 10, 5 were killed and 5 were captured and became POWs.
Pilot: 2nd Lt. Aubrey M. Bobbitt--Wounded and captured and sent to Stalag Luft III until January 1945 when all of the POWs at Stalag Luft III were transferred to Stalag VII A. After the war, my father stayed in the Air Force flying B-47's and B-52's. He died on active duty on August 28, 1971 of a heart attack.

Co-Pilot: 2nd Lt. Peter P. McCahill--captured and sent to Stalag Luft III. Peter died July 28, 2011 at his home in Middlebury, Connecticut at age 91.

Bombadier: 2nd Lt Lawrence A. Weigman--Captured and sent to Stalag Luft III. Lawrence died in Orlando, FL at age 84.

There is an interesting story about Lt. Weigman in the documentation. Lt. Wiegman parachuted and was picked up by German civilians and taken to a beer hall. Believing that his escape kit contained German Marks, he order beer for everyone a couple of times. When German soldiers entered, he discovered that his kit contained French Francs. One of the Germans had to pay for the beer.

Navigator: 2nd Lt. Gordon L. Amos--KIA
Radio Operator: T/SGT James L. Duncan--KIA
Flight Engineer: T/SGT Robert Claybourn--Captured and sent to Stalag 9a at Ziegenhain Hessen Nassau Pruss, Germany.
Right Waist Gunner: S/SGT Lawrence Richard Hopwood--KIA
Left Waist Gunner: S/SGT James Langley--KIA
Ball Turret Gunner: S/SGT Paul Edward Warren--KIA
Tail Gunner: S/SGT William J. Hart--Captured and sent to Stalag 17b at Braunau Gneikendorf (near Krem) Germany.

I remember my father telling me that Lt. Amos was killed by flak inbound to the target at Hanover. Exactly when and how the others died isn't known. But with all but the top turret and tail gunners killed or wounded, the B-17 likely became an easy target for Captain Becker.

The after-mission report from 388th Bomb Group has several errors concerning aircraft names and numbers. The aircraft with serial numbers 42-30198, 42-30202,42-30225, and 42-30208 are confused with one another, and aircraft names and crew commanders vary from the personnel lists in 388th Bomb Squadron records and other records.

I'll only say that I am 100 percent certain that the information I've provided for the Bobbitt crew is correct as I've cross verified with many different records, MARC reports, and German records. Additionally, my father told me that the B-17 he was flying that day did not have a name or nose art. Therefore he couldn't have been flying the B-17 named GUZZLERS.

This is probably more information that you might want, but I hope in some very small way, it sets the record straight for the Bobbitt crew and aircraft 42-30208.

Regards,
Fred Bobbitt
Lt. Col. USMC (Retired) 

Tom,
I am assuming (should never assume) that you referenced Ed Huntzinger's "The 388th At War".   If so, I understand the confusion because even looking at his record of Mission #4, it appears that the pilot/plane ID shown in the formation diagram on page does not match the plane ID on page 19 for Lt. Bobbitt or Lt. Horn.  I don't know if this confuses more than it helps.  Sorry if it confuses.
Regards,
Neale 600

Neale:
The 338BG losses for the 26-JUL-43 mission have been resolved. B17 42-30198 WAS NOT lost on that raid. Somehow it got confused by Freeman/Osborne with B17-42-30189!!! I think they transposed the serial number sequence. I have not been able to pin down the assignment of B17-42-30198, but have requested the Aircraft Record Card from Air Force Historical Research Society at Maxwell, AFB. I think that card will show that this aircraft actually survived the war and was returned to the US for reclaimation. The Record Card will NOT show what unit or units it was assigned to, only that it was with 8thAF. The five losses for 388BG on that mission have been resolved as:
B-17 42-30189 w/GUNN MACR 3067
B-17 42-30208 w/ BOBBITT MACR 3142
B-17 42-30209 w/PORTER No MACR issued because the 11 aboard were rescued from the North Sea.
B-17 42-30224 w/HORN MACR 3130
B-17 42-30225 w/DENTON MACR 3131
In performing research and cataloging on every MIA aircraft lost by 8thAF I have found quite a few disparities in the published Freeman/Osborne data. Their data was collected BEFORE the computer age and they had to organize everything on paper. Many of the MACRs are very difficult to read from the original microfilm data, so it is understandable that there are going to be errors. Overall, these gentlemen did an OUTSTANDING job of recording the infomration and making it available to the public. AS time goes by and many more people get involved in this research, the records will get better and better. This FORUM is a real asset in researching this data. SO STAY TUNED, HERE.... There are lots of very wise people here that really love the history and are so very helpful in resolving these types of questions.

Lee -
B-17 # 42 - 30198 QJ L " Guzzlers "
6/5/43 Assigned 96th BG , 339 Sq. Andrews Field
6/12/43 Snetterton Field
?/43 Transferred to 388th BG , 563d Sq.
------------------------------------------------------
B-17 # #42 - 30180 AW H " Guzzlers "
7/6/43 Assigned 96th BG , 337th Sq. Andrews Field
6/12/43 Snetterton Field
?/43 Transferred to 388th BG Project Aphrodite - Drone
-----------------------------------------------------------
These 2 and a few more in this Serial # Range , transferred
to Project Aphrodite , are very similar. I'm thinking #198 was
a Drone or Control A/C ???
 I have 388th BG Book and I checked Formation Diagrams
clear into March 1944. #198 not listed. The 388th BG later
Flew # 42 - 107198 assigned 4/44.
Cheers,
Mike
 

Mike:
42-30198 to 388BG Aphrodite Project sounds plausible. I'm still waiting for the Aircraft Record Card from AFHRS. While that won't detail the unit(s) it was assigned to, it will document its final disposition. I should be able to tell if it was destroyed on an Aphrodite Mission or whether it wasa RETUS.
I have 42-30180 as used by 388BG Aphrodite Project as destroyed on 14-SEP-44 with Hemmingstadt as the target. My note indicates the pilot was killed baling out, but I don't have his name, rank or serial number.
It will be interesting to see what happened with 42-30198.