305th B 17 '' Butch '' ?

 
Here are 2 photos I just received - the only person I can identify in either is my cousin Staff Sergeant William T. Nolan who was shot down and killed on June 13th 1943 in 42-5215 , can anyone ID any other crew members ? Any information on this aircraft '' Butch '' ?
Photo were almost certainly taken in the first half of 1943 and I suspect '' Butch '' was part of the 365th squadron.
Any information would be much appreciated. 

Delancey,
The Correct Serial # for B-17:
#42 - 5125 XK Q
Shot down 6/13/43
Pilot - Lt. Grant Higgs
Sgt. William T. Nolan - Ball Turret Gunner
8 KIA    2 POW   MACR # 16205
Mike

Never heard it called Butch but there it is:
From the Memphis Belle movie.  42-5125, XK-Q,  - we think this is Boomtown Jr.

Grant Higgs flew three missions in 42-5125 - May 4th to Antwerp, June 11 to Wilhelmshaven and June 13 to Bremen on which he was shot down.  Nolan only flew two missions on 42-5125 and they were on June 13 and June 11.  I am just guessing here, but if this is a picture of Nolan it was probably taken after the June 11 mission to Wilhelmshaven.  The crew for that day was Grant Higgs - Pilot, John Hall - Co-pilot, J Edwards Navigator, Stanley Van Dyke - bomb, Victor Fort - radio, Guyford Leith TT, Paul Hanson - BT, TG was Raymond Cgragen, WG - W Nolan and R Miears.  I do not believe I have any photos of any of the crew except Grant Higgs.

Photo of Grant Higgs Jr, named after the original, at the grave of Grant.

Another photo of Grant Higgs during training.

From the look of that top photo, a higher-resolution scan might confirm the serial number stencilled below the navigator's window.

Thanks for replies guys , yeah I made an error in the serial number it was indeed 42-5125 , the official history of the 305 states Nolan as Ball Turret Gunner but that contradicts the Deceased Personnel File , family history , the mssion records of June 11th and 13th where he is listed as waist gunner and to top it all off Nolan's records state his height at just short of five feet 10 inches which I'm sure you'll agree is pretty tall for a Ball Turret Gunner - I'll stick my neck out here and say I think the history is wrong on this one.
 
All my research points to the crew of June 13th being ' Ad Hoc ' in nature and they don't appear to have regularly flown together , indeed on June 13th Billy Nolan was expected in Ireland for a vacation to visit his relatives - he had done his 25 missions and was due to return to the US after his vacation - my father recalls the preparations made for his arrival in Ireland.
 
Despite all records suggesting that MACR 16205 deals with the loss on June 13th I assure you it does not - rather it refers to 42-24533 lost on June 22 1943 ( have it here in front of me ). Deceased personnel File actually states '' no MACR was done for this aircraft ( 42-5125 ) ''.
 
I wonder was '' Butch '' Sgt Nolan's ' regular ' aircraft and crew ?
 
Grant Higgs was indeed pilot of 42-5125 and was killed before the plane went into the water , Bombardier Lt. Stanley Van Dyke drowned trying to reach a dinghy , Right Waist Gunner Sgt. Granese was also badly wounded / killed before the plane crashed . 7 men made it into 2 dinghies but ultimately only 2 survived - the Deceased file makes for a harrowing read.
Just wondering if anyone knows anything about '' Butch '' and crew ?

Butch is a very early B-17F and that rabbit artwork on the nose has a lot in common with the artwork on the 422nd Bomb Squadron's 41-24525, What's Cookin' Doc.
 
 

Chris , I am attaching a photo of the crew of B 17 '' Patches '' - note the officer 4th from right holding a teddy bear under his arm , that is Lt. Stanley Van Dyke who drowned swimming to a dinghy from 42-5125 on June 13th 1943 (  just 8 days after the photo was taken ).
 
I have no reason to believe '' Butch '' is 42-5125 rather I suspect its a completely different plane that William Nolan had flown on before he moved to the aircraft he lost his life on.

Hello all.
 
I noticed the second picture posted at top, showing the crew alongside waist area of ship, the fuselage codes are 'K' followed by what I'd consider to be a 'Y'. This indicated to be the ship behind them is a 366th Sqn one.
 
42-5125 XK-Q is on our main master listing of all B-17's flown in the 305th group. So far we have no attributed name to her. The assignment and loss dates already posted by Mike and Chris C.
 
''BOOM TOWN JR'' is actually 42-29529 XK-Y 365th Sqn. Assigned to group 8th April 1943, originally christened ''MOONBEAM MCSWINE''. She was later re-named ''BOOM TOWN JR'', lost with the Lt Don Moore crew 27th Aug 1943.
 
On our secondary , non attributed list, we have a ''BUTCH'' and ... ''LITTLE BUTCH''. These and all the name son this secondary list have no serial numbers assigned. It is merely a listing of names which to the best of our knowledge we may have had at some time or another.
 
I agree a high resolution scan of the main picture could reveal the Asn number.
 
Also agree the rabbitt on the nose art is familiar to that used on ''WHATS COOKIN DOC?'' of the 422nd - 41-24525 JJ-O.
 
Ian

I agree that there have been a number of threads concerning the name of 42-5125 and the consensus seems to be that there is no consensus ! A number of names have been attributed to 42-5125 though I had thought ''Boomtown Jr. '' was the most likely candidate.....
I would love to know that name it carreid on June 13th 1943 though I suspect that will prove difficult to prove with certainty.
I would be interested in learning what aircraft/crew that Sgt. Nolan had flown the bulk of his missions with. 

Steve Birdsall

Butch is a very early B-17F and that rabbit artwork on the nose has a lot in common with the artwork on the 422nd Bomb Squadron's 41-24525, What's Cookin' Doc.
 
 

 
Purely as a matter of interest how can you tell that it is a very early F model ? I can really only tell G models at a glance 

The early B-17Fs had dimpled nose cones and no astrodome, among other things.
 
For what it's worth, the nose art on XK-Q 42-5125 appears to match the name and "gusher" artwork that was carried by Boom Town, Jr.

One thing about Boomtown Jr and Moonbeam.  My father was shotdown on this plane with Don Moore and he always called it Moonbeam.  So, I have some doubt that the plane became Boomtown Jr after Moonbeam.

Hello Chris
I would have to agree and concede that point. Having looked at the original lists prepared by MG in the 80's I already know of a few errors, so in light of last know name, it may be we are looking at another ship carrying the name. As Steve has now pointed the distant shot appears to have the same image likely to be ''BOOM TOWN JR''. When we actually have a clear image, with the Asn visible, it cancels out any doubts or misdirections.
 
Ian

Great thread everyone!
Over the past couple of years talking with Chris Coffmann and now Fintan Lee, I also am under the assumption that the naming of 42-5125 XK-Q, Boomtown Jr. is correct. The photo of the plane with the "Boomtown jr" and spewing oil tanker accompanied with Clyde Walkers crew on their last flight is the plane i reference. I have attached it here.  I believe Chris Coffman sent this photo to me a few years ago. Further, Chris' Father Robert Coffman was good friends with Grant Higgs. In fact, a couple months after Grant Higgs and 42-5125 crashed, Robert Coffman was shot down and while he was in POW camp, he penned a poem about his friend Grant Higgs titled "The Skipper" In this poem, Coffman refers to Higgs as the pilot of Boomtown. A mission list that was sent to me of all 9 of Higgs' missions also references 42-5125 as Boomtown Jr. Although this is not any sort of official document.
Chris, we (Higgs' Family) don't mind if that poem is shared here in this thread, if it is alright with you. Also, the photo of my son at Uncle Grants tomb stone is slightly incorrect. We named him Colin Grant, not Grant Higgs jr. My wife is a Higgs and therefore Colin couldn't carry that last name 
-Lewis and Myca (Higgs) Christensen

Steve Birdsall

Butch is a very early B-17F and that rabbit artwork on the nose has a lot in common with the artwork on the 422nd Bomb Squadron's 41-24525, What's Cookin' Doc.
 
 

I show a mission Grant Higgs flew on as mission # 39, to St Nazaire-5, on 29 May 1943 aboard plane 41-24575, call number XK-S, nickname Sunrise Serenader. No photo available here, off by 1 digit of "What's Cookin' Doc"

I think I'll post up William Nolans picture - that means we have photos of 3 of the crew that died on June 13th 1943. Has anyone ever seen photos of other crew such as Lt. Goldfine ( navigator ) Lt. Olmstead ( co-pilot and POW ) Sgt Granese ( Right Waist Gunner ) , etc ? 
As an aside I have to say Sgt Nolans resemblance to my Grandfather at that age is almost spooky.
  
 

 
 

Hi Delancey -
 
Before this thread fades away, could you check if the numbers stencilled on the nose of Butch above the name are readable? The photo looks to be very sharp, so a high resolution scan of that section (or just a magnifying glass) might give us the answer we're looking for.
 
Thanks!

Yeah Steve , I'll get my cousin who has the original photos in an old album to see if he can improve on what we have now. I notice some unusual writing on the engine cowling - is that of any value or significance ?

Thanks, that would be great. That lettering on the cowling looks to be a name, maybe "Barbara Jean". The story goes that ground crew members sometimes got to name an engine after a girlfriend. Or there was the number three engine of the 97th Bomb Group's Flying Flit Gun, which carried the name "Peggy" in honour of LIFE photographer Margaret Bourke-White.

OK , I've contacted my cousin and a re-scan will be done this weekend , if that fails to get the details then it's plan B - magnifying glass on the originals !! I do hope we can get this information.
 
I have a question that perhaps someone here may have some idea about - as already mentioned 42-5125 went into the North Sea and 7 crew made into the dinghies , position was noted and reported on by other aircraft yet these guys were never rescued nor do records show any evidence that any Search or Rescue operation was mounted ( that is not to say effors were not made but I can find no reference to them ).
Just what sort of Air Sea Search and Rescue Service did the USAAF operate at the time ? Did they even have such a service ?
I am aware that the dinghies carried survival gear and emergency radio sets but in this case much of the survival equipment either failed or was broken in the crash - for example the kites used to take aloft the aerials for the radios were smashed , signalling balloon was destroyed and a number of flares failed to ignite.
Fact is these men who were all suffering varying degress of injury drifted for days on end and ultimately all but 2 died - while the North Sea is surely an inhospitable place it is a hell of a lot smaller than the Pacific.
 
I'm not implying any criticism of the USAAF nor should that be inferred but I am curious as to what provision was made for rescuing downed aircrew at sea ?
 

 
Ok Folks , I attach a ' blow up ' of the area in question - still frustratingly fuzzy but I think it reads as 41-3657 ?
 
 

Yes, frustratingly fuzzy but I think it might be 41-24572, which was delivered by Boeing on  August 10, 1942 and originally assigned to Lt Morris M. Jones and his crew in the 364th Bomb Squadron of the 305th Bomb Gropup. This B-17 was transferred to the 414th Bomb Squadron of the 97th Bomb Group, presumably to bring them up to strength before they moved to North Africa in November 1942, and might have been the plane assigned to 1/Lt Claude H. Lawrence and his crew. The plane was transferred again to the 346th Bomb Squadron, 99th Bomb Group on November 14, 1943. Flew its last mission on March 30, 1944, returned to the U.S. in June 1944 and to Walnut Ridge September 1945. That would certainly explain why Butch doesn't show up in the 305th's records. Does that make sense to you Ian?

Delancey -
At the time that Area of the North Sea was under the
Control of the Luftwaffe and German Navy. That , plus
the long distance would have prevented a Rescue Boat
or Aircraft from attempting a Rescue. ASR Crewmen
did a Heroic job of saving RAF and American Crewmen
but some they just coudn't find or get to. 
Steve brought up a Good Point. B-17 # 41 - 24572 was
assigned 305th BG 10/22/42 and Transferred to 97th BG
11/4/42 so it was with 305th BG less than 2 Weeks.
Mike

Thanks for replies guys , really disappointing that the numbers are too fuzzy to be sure - one thing I am aware of is that my cousin ( Sgt Nolan ) seems to have flown a number of missions where the pilot was a Captain Saunders - anyone heard of him ?

1/Lt Robert A. Saunders was a pilot in the 365th Bomb Squadron and flew 41-24573 to England.

I put up a high resolution image of the ' Butch ' photo on Dropbox ( way too big to post here or e-mail ) and Steve Birdsall has taken a good look at it again - in the background is a B17 with squadron lettering visible on the fuselage , apparently this lettering was not applied to B 17's until December 1942 which casts doubt on ' Butch ' being 41-24572 given that this aircraft was re-assigned to another group in early November of that year.
 
Steve thinks the correct number is 41-24573  which was flown to Chelveston by a crew commanded by Lt. Saunders and Lt. Burnett , I know my cousin flew at least twice with these guys so although he was not among the delievery crew I do wonder if LT. Saunders was his 'primary' pilot ?
 
I am aware that 41-24573 was lost on May 19th on the Kiel raid , my cousin was on that raid flying with Saunders and Burnett in another B17.
Anyone have any information on the aircraft flown by Lt's Saunders and Burnett ?
Can anyone ID any of the ' Butch ' crew ?
 
If anyone wants to view the high res image of ' Butch ' feel free to PM your e-mail details and I will be happy to give Dropbox access.
 
Thanks guys

Steve, belated reply to your question here.
Looking at our secondary noseart name list, while we do have a reference to the name ''BUTCH'' and ''LITTLE BUTCH'', also amazingly another by name of ''BATTLIN' BUTCH'' we have so far been unable to attribute any of these to a specific serial number. Several ships and especially early arrivals in the '42-'43 era remain name unknown. A number of our early assigned aircraft, which came in to Grafton in the fall of 1942, were taken away from the 305th and traded to the 97th BG, for the departure out to North Africa. That happened. The distant memory of the name as I say, on our secondary list, probably does tally with her name at the time Morris Jones had her in ZI and flew her over to Grafton, and briefly considered her to be his.
 
As an aside. I only just confirmed last week, another ship we had briefly at the start of operations, 41-24359 has now been verified as ''TURD BIRD''. An ex-301st BG ship we received into the group 25th November '42. I'm thinking she as an early 'F', she was one which replaced the many we traded out to the 97th BG for their North Africa campaign. #359 stayed with us till 20th April 1943, before being re-assigned out to our neighbours the 92nd BG. Thru the 92nd's sources I was able to determine she was known as ''TURD BIRD''. So, at some point I beleive the question of ''BUTCH'' may be answered!
 
Ian

Thanks Ian - there's some information on the nose art of 41-24359 at this old thread:
 
http://forum.armyairforces.com/Early-301st-Bomb-Group-B17Fs-m208165.aspx
 
Have you ever seen that artwork on a 305th plane? It fits well enough with the "Turd Bird" name, but was born again on 42-5131 as Hun-Pecker, in North Africa.

I just got some interesting information from my cousin who came across some handwritten notes compiled by his father ( also a USAAF veteran ) around 2001 , in the notes he says that Staff Sergeant Nolan flew 15 of his 26 missions on B17 ' Butch ' with Lt. Saunders as Pilot and Lt. Burnett as Co-Pilot.
I must add the caveat that there is no source given for this information nor do the notes contain a serial number , but having said that it would seem to bear out the impression that ' Butch ' was his main aircraft and the crew of Lt's Burnett and Saunders were his main crew.
This would also seem to bear out the identification of B 17 ' Butch ' as 41-24573.
 
This aircraft was shot down on May 19th 1943 but for reasons we can only guess at Lt's Saunders and Burnett and Sgt Nolan were crewing a different aircraft.

I have just found this site. My dad Earl W Quillman crewed on the Butch. Navigator with 305. Did 33 missions.  He said ( before he passed away years ago ) the crew went through three planes. I don't think he did all is runs with the same plane. Any info would be appreciated. I find this format difficult,but can always get me at  jackq1900@comcast .net. Dad  was at  PRESTWICK ---- ended up retiring  from the Airforce after 24 years.  Many thanks. Jack

Yes----I have a picture of Saunders ---looking out the window (with bullit hole ) smiling.  Has large gloves on hands. My dad was Earl quillman --Navagator on one or more of Butch (s) he did 33 missions  and said there were three Butches and all three were totaled. I believe (pretty sure) he said Butch was on the same "last run" as the Memphis Bell. He never reall y talked about his time with the 305 and I have a  group picture of the 305  at Prestwick. I will need to find these old photos to confirm --- but of course I have them. Dad was from Erie and we (he visited) one of the crew that lived within  in driving distance from Erie on our summer vacation .  Im  just getting up to speed with this site (just found it) . Thanks guys----I will share what I have. Jack

Yeah Jack , any information on any of the ' Butch'es ' and crew/s would be of great interest to me. Regarding the 2 photos I posted at the start of this thread , do you recognise your dad in either ? - I have high resolution shots available on Dropbox if that would help you ?
Thanks for posting here.