Hi all.. This subject, and the slight diversion int MoH territory has stirred up a few thoughs, and I thank you all.
 
I never had doubts that those that frequent this site, are of the likeminded opinion to remember, secure, protect, ALL family connections in regard surviving memorabilia etc.
 
Many of you have showed great examples of how you ave personally done so, in memory of a Father, Uncle, Grandfather etc. Thats a wonderful thing, and you should all be rightly proud of this.
 
The Medal of Honor subject ad the various replies by a number of you, confirmed what I has suspected (based on the conversatons I had with Ralph Franklin at the 306thBG Museum), and that is such use of this medal, indeed all awards bestowed by the US Government, are so subject to law. It however really baffles me just how those two, suposed original genuine but unissued, MoH are now being placed for sale on Ebay? They originated somewhere I have to assume. Most likely from a source in the USA? If original that is? Or if not, and they are copies, they have been maufacturered overseas, Taiwan? China? God forbid that these are indeed 'real mccoy' and have somehow originated from an official US Source..... which would create all kinds of uncomfortable questions. Has someone with access to such medals been making a nice little business, removing medals from storage and passing them on for sale?
 
I'll leave this hot potato for others to persue further......................
 
Lets be thankful that we on AAF and other associated links are iactively involved in preserving this history.  
 
Thanks for sharing your views on a difficult subject.
 
Regards Ian
 

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Terry, Son of a carpetbagger dispatcher,  Good for you to keep these and make the shadow box display.  A fine tribute to your father.  Phillip

Ian,
I was reluctant to reply before because I have in the past done so in another post. However I will do it again. I came from a family that if your not using it, throw it out. I married into a family just the opposite. I am now, (the city slicker who married the country girl) the surviving member of that family, holding onto the things that the country folk would not part with. I will not go into detail of the things I inherited, it is unbeliveable. Things starting from before the "Great Depression". The Issue here is Johns things. His toys, from boyhood to the time of his service in the USAAF and his demise over Austria. I have all his medals, the flag over his coffin, ALL the test papers books etc he accrued durring ALL the flight schools he attended, all the letters he sent home and All his uniforms wallet etc sent back to my mother in-law when he went MIA. I would not in my wildest dreams sell, give, or discard anything from Johns or his family's past. I dont have an intellegent answer as to why others dispose of family mememtos for the almighty dollar, but luckly I have one of my surviving daughters that has laid claim to my deceased wifes family mementos after my demise, (which is down the road apiece).

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

What I've been able to collect (and continue to do so) will all go to YAM.  Although it is very small in the big picture, it will help to replace some of the history and memories that were lost in the 09OC04 fire which destroyed the original museum.  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

John, Jerry, Steve and all...
 
I have tremendous admiration for John and Jerry, and all those that have held in safe keeping memorabilia from their respective next of kin, be they a Father or Uncle, Grandfather or Brother, it is all very important family history. Their own very individual and personal way of remembering is to be applauded. I only wish all families that have such reminders of history take the same care to remember similar items.
 
In the UK today, we have a number of news reports that our own British Forces in Afghanistan have this day reached the tragic 100 fatalities, whilst serving in that theatre. On the scale of things, not perhaps s dramati as those lives lost in WW2. However, in reality our present UK Forces overall are a tiny fraction of what they were in years past (and are shrinking as each month goes by with government cut backs). Lets hope those that have mde such a sacrifice will be remembered in a fitting way in the years to come; other wise .... what was their death truly for? Is it certain that their families will remember them in the years to come?
 
From past experiences, in my opnion anyway, there are many kinds of collectors. A number are devoted to a specific subject, era, or a group or unit. They have a thirst to learn about the significance of such material, and in their own way treasure it. The majority have good intentions, and should be encouraged.
 
Then there are other types. THe motivation they all share is almost always is driven by how much its worth balanced against current market prices. No point in flowering it up more than that, its a business and the personal connections to items, the human story behind a piece, is something very low on their list of priorities.
 
Thankfully, there are quite a number that have a true interterst, the former, and whilst they my not have a family link to such pieces of memorabilia, their heart is in the story of who-how-why and that has to be a blessing. They will endeavour, all being well, to take care of these, as if they were their own Father's, Grandfather's or related family.
 
Comes back to the original point. Its a tragic shame that familes who have this history in their very own hands, decide for their own reasons, to sell them and in one sweep of a hand, wipe away the very core of that piece of history they had; which been a part them - their past - to upto that point.
 
Ian
 
 

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Ian et al,
 
I really wish I knew how to respond to this post as I am at a lost for words....as a MARINE I AM SICKENED by the thought of anyone selling the CMH (whomevers' it was) but as one person I can only do what I can....right now I have been bitten by the research bug if you will to find out the history of my military family members, of which started at what I think was the aftermath of WWI then through current times to end with myself. I'am doing all I can to gather information to inform my family, pass on to my children and anyone else who cares to listen what they all have done. Its not relevant to this forum but I still have a Great Uncle whom is MIA from The Korean War(prior service in WWII) and I recently inherited if you will pictures from prior to WWII when his Artillery Unit was in Wyoming.
These photos, I'am trying to get copied and out to other relatives but the originals I HOLD and will pass on and as pointed out will be passed on with the stipulation NOT TO BE SOLD!!!! Unfortunatley, Once I pass what happens to them or anything else I collect or gather, unless sent directly to a museum, may/maynot be sold on ebay, or the future equivallent as much as I may protest!!!! Anyway, please, lets all do what we can to remember what was done by our relatives in WWII(USAAF), any and all conflicts prior to and after/services or otherwise and try to protect it as best we can!!!!!
 
Respectfully and Regards,
Clint

Hello Clint. Thanks for thoughts. As a serving US Marine, I can readily understand YOUR shock at seeing a MoH for sale, as posted on Ebay.
I take heart though, as with many already stating, that you as a member of your family are making efforts to treasure the personal stories and artifacts you all have. I'm guessing you may have a descending family history serving in the armed forces?? In any event, its good to see you upholding the values of what that history means.
 
Question: You trained at some time at Camp LeJeurne, Jacksonville NC?? I think I got this correct??!!?!? I spent a few weeks as a guest of a friend over there and was taken through the base a couple of times by car. Most impresssive!!! For a Brit it was a different way of life and no mistake..!
 
Thanks for sharing your comments
 
Ian

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Clint: My Leatherneck father (1943-64) maintains that no Marine worth his cammies and deuce gear would EVER sell his Eagle Globe & Anchors at a swap meet, yard sale, or a flea market, but that would not stop his family from doing so. My Leatherneck son (2002-present) agrees.

All:  There are no authorized sources of authentic, uncirculated or unissued MOH devices. Period.
 
It is illegal to sell, wear, or manufacture any decorations or medals authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States.
 
Title 18 United States Code. Sec. 1001, 25 JUN 1948, ch. 45, 62 Stat. 749 states: In General - Whoever knowingly wears, manufactures, or sells any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title (18 United State Code) or imprisoned not more than six months or both.

There is no prohibition against selling, trading or giving away rank insignia, unit devices, campaign ribbons (as opposed to decoration ribbons).

re: offering for sale of eBay.

This is from the eBay website:

The following items may not be listed on eBay: Congressional Medal of Honor, Distinguished Service Cross, Navy Cross, Air Force Cross, Purple Heart, and certificates for these medals. Also prohibited are any associated ribbons, buttons, or rosettes of any such medals.

CPT(VT) W.P. Sullivan
HQ Company - Asst G-3
Camp Johnson, VT

___‹(•¿•)›____
Kilroy was here

If anyone notice such items listed at auction on eBay, I urge you to go to the bottom of the listing page, click-on "REPORT THIS ITEM," and follow the steps to which you will be prompted.

Carry On.

CPT(VT) W.P. Sullivan
HQ Company - Asst G-3
Camp Johnson, VT

___‹(•¿•)›____
Kilroy was here

CPT Sullivan ,
I just read an interesting Article in the Latest Armchair General Magazine
on this Subject.
It also mentioned that in 2006 , Congress passed a Law ' The Stolen Valor Act '
that protects any Medal authorized by Congress and makes it a Crime for any
Individual to Falsely Claim that they Earned such a Medal.
Mike

Navilluswp... Thanks for confirming the MoH issue.
 
I am wondering now, if there is no official source for procuring such awards, for example museum display, then I am at a loss as to how the 306th BG Museum were donated an example for public display, in memory of their own Sgt Snuffy Smith, MoH recipient. Smith's own original medal was lost by him in years after war.
 
The medal on display, as I understand it, is an authorised copy which was organised by a former Governer (?) in USA. His own family has personal links to the 306th BG and this was his way of honouring that fact, and to remember Snuffy Smith. I do think I got it correct when saying the planning and follow through of its donation had to be via official channels. The US side were VERY insistant that the medal be displayed in a certain manner, and its security be upmost. I beleive as far as this donation is concerned, and in such a manner so given, was the first and only one to have organised in such a way.
 
On subject of Ebay. I agree, the other MoH decorations on sale on Ebay should not be there. I am following up your suggestions and contacted Ebay.
 
Ian

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Cpt Sullivan,
 
You, your father and your son would be so CORRECT! I still have every piece of cammo BDU,Dress uniform, tie tack and yes all MY EGA's ever issued to me or bought by me, will keep em forever! Semper Fi!
 
Ian,
 
Unfortunately never made it to Lejeune....couple trips through the Stumps(29 palms,Ca.), Pendleton, Little Creek and a few Army posts(yuck, haha no offense to the soldiers out there). Let us know what Ebay tells you when you report this.
 
Regards,
Clint

Hello All...
 
Clint, I forwarded a complaint concerning MoH issue. I received initial reply as below
 
** This is an automated email to acknowledge receipt of your report.
Please do not respond to this email. If you need to, you can contact us
from any eBay Help page.**
-------------------
Hello,
Thank you for taking the time to let us know about your concerns over
this particular item.
We take reports of banned items listed on the eBay website seriously and
we'll investigate your report as soon as possible - usually within 24-36
hours. If we find the item/s breach eBay's listing policies for sellers,
we'll remove them from the site.
You can read our policies by copying this link into a new browser
window:
 http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/listing-ov.html
Please be aware that, as it's important that eBay maintains member
privacy, we can't share details of the action we take. We'll only
contact you again about this matter if we need to ask you for more
information.
Again, thank you for your report and for helping us to keep eBay a safe,
fun place to shop.

Regards,
eBay Trust and Safety
____________________
Learn more about buying and selling safely on eBay. Visit the eBay
Safety Centre by clicking on the "Safety Centre" link at the bottom of
the eBay homepage.
 
I guess I may or may not receive Ebay's response to this in due course?
 
Ian

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

ORIGINAL: Nextgen


Sad as it is to see a veteran's personal effects auctioned off on eBay by family members, at least they will go to some collector or history buff who places a higher value on such things. Tragically, they are more often simply set out on the curb in a box on the first garbage day after the funeral. Occasionally we get such boxes donated to the museum where they are cataloged and preserved.

Once when I was browsing in a used book store locally I came across an 8th AF book with the name of a good friend inside the cover. We had just buried him the weekend before. I already had a copy of that book at home, but bought it anyway. Veterans are encouraged make arrangements for such memorabilia to go to a caring family member or a reputable museum well before they join the "The High Squadron".

While I was going to school for my BA in History, I was a full-time Trash Collector for my city.  You would be surprised (or maybe not) how family members just throw stuff away like this.  I have rescued all kinds of WWII stuff.  Original patches and decorations; dozens of strike photos over occupied Europe taken from a B-24; whole WWII scrapbooks with great photos of equipment and bases; B-25 photos taking off for Sicily in July 1943; photos and tour info of a female WWII entertainer/dancer; WWII letters from British author Noel Streatfeild to her Chicago Pen pal; uniforms, captured enemy equipment and gear; US web gear and packs.  I could go on.  You just can't believe it.  Some of these surviving family members-or the adult offspring- just can't wait to clean out the house and get it on the market so they can split up the money.  It is quite sad.  Since the vast majority of garbage men are not trained social scientists, it is safe to assume that great quantities of history are headed for the land fill every day.  What a shame some folks can't see far enough ahead to preserve our history and their own family heritage.  A loss to us all.  TonyM.

Hello, all ~

I reported these 2 auctions to eBay (however, to me, they seem very protective of their sellers):

1. Congressional Medal of Honor
http://ngvi.ebay.co.uk/vi?ngvi&backtoid=0&ppsp=0&li=1&pdp=0&sspagename=WDVW&dsr=1&item=250253360633&backto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk&pass=Z8zXAjo4l9k8OJI2uxKpI6AiHY8%3D

2. CMOH replica bar
http://ngvi.ebay.co.uk/vi?ngvi&backtoid=3&ppsp=0&li=1&pdp=0&dsr=1&item=260248218416&backto=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch-completed.ebay.co.uk%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26sbrftog%3D1%26dfsp%3D1%26catref%3DC6%26from%3DR40%26satitle%3D%2522medal%2Bof%2Bhonor%2522%26sacat%3D1%2526catref%253DC6%26floc%3D1%26sargn%3D-1%2526saslc%253D2%26sabfmts%3D1%26fis%3D2%26ftrt%3D1%26ftrv%3D1%26sabdlo%3D%26sabdhi%3D%26saprclo%3D%26saprchi%3D%26sass%3D%26fsop%3D1%2526fsoo%253D2&pass=sEhSZTmvlWoQht14eyxoxYLtvGU%3D

I couldn't get through to eBay's UK policies - the site wasn't available - but at least they'll know somebody was watching even if these aren't banned items in Europe. Did anyone else report the auctions? I'll be surprized if there's any response. I've reported things in the past with no recognition at all that eBay ever did anything.

It occurs to me that it's possible that the US and the UK may have reciprical agreements concerning trafficking. I tried the search.gov site, but was quickly frustrated. When I found this site: Congressional Medal of Honor Society at http://www.cmohs.org/index.html , I thought they'd know where to turn. I crossed my fingers and gave them the details.

I'm not sure at all that this will help, but if people cause ripples, the boat rocks!

Yours, Julia [sm=kiss.gif]

Hi all..
Tony made a very valid point, which is acommon thread on a number of conversations through this site. Sadly there are a great number of families with little or no interest in the heritage. The sight of boxes of material dumped on the roadside is a very real one. Sometimes knowingly done, or sometimes misguidedly so, when perhaps individuals dont full appreciate the signifance, and cant think to at least donate to local museum etc.
 
I speak of one of our own widows of a former 305th veteran. A lovely lady and certainly not a typical example of someone wishing to cash her late husbands memories into cash. In this case, she simply had no family to pass anything on to, and truly didnt know of the historic interest. She originally came from England, a GI Bride, and came over often to see her birth place. On one visit I and Bill Donald met this lady at an exhibition were were mounting. We were totally blown away to her this lady informing us that when her husband passed away, she decided to clean up the house, and sent several boxes of his belongings to the trash recycling. This including, believe it or not, his medals, military papers, even items of uniforms. Bill and I just stood in disbelief at the comments, but could say very little. It was her choice, albeit a tragic one. I'm sure this is repeated many times, and will continue to be.... as Tony said, in such an act a great amount of history has been and will continue to be lost.
 
Tragic.
 
Julia said about Ebay and lack of response. I am still to receive a reply. I dont know if anyone else has contacted them about the Medal of Honor sales?? I have not checked, but surely Ebay is a global operation, and must have a US division. Thats where the questions should be aimed at. If I know anything of litigation and the legal eagles, especially in USA, someone will be keen to jump in and make a case in the US courts; especially on such an emotive subject as the decorations given to its countrymen for the highest form of courage valour and heroism.
 
Over to you guys in the USA!!!!
 
Ian W

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Ian,
First of all I do not disagree with any comments contributed to this thread, (a good one I might add). Secondly, another factor to consider in the failure to save military mementos is the GI himself. An X number came home, threw their medals into an obscure place drawer, cardboard box etc. and as to the war, their reply," I dont want to talk about it, dont mention it again ". He passes on, family members come across medals etc. and dont have the foggiest idea of their significance and assume they cant be important to his memory if he would not talk about it, so they get rid of them. A classic example of affection for his medals was the most decorated soldier in WWII, the MOH winner Audie Murphy. He gave all his medals away. I think they did go to family members.

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

Hello John. Glad you liked the thread; the response has surprised me I have to say.
 
You make yet another valid point, an explanation from another perspective on the famly, respect, heritage, saving history theme. Yes there are countless numbers of veterans that for whatever personal reasons, chose to shun that part of their lives, to forget their part in it and not court interest from either outside or more importantly, from their own immediate family. Again, in our 305th there are a great number that have never joined the association 1975 onwards; they never contact old buddies from their respective squadron. They have never attended a reunion, perhaps never visit a VFW post or attend any similar gatherings, such as American Legion.
 
Why? Lots of reasons could be used to explain this. Without doubt many had to live through terrible experiences, shocking events that probably live with them even today. Talking about it and sharing just brings it to the surface all over again.
 
In those situations, its hardly surprising that a veteran's family, upon his (or her) death, will be unclear of that history, and to find a few items hidden away in a dusty corner of a basement will not help to explain and tell that story. As John rightly said, if it was never talked about, the surviving family in a some circumstances will not genuinely know, understand, or appreciate what they have.
 
This whole subject of veterans momentoes, memorabilia, left behind when they are gone is a hard one to discuss. Each family and each example is unique to the veteran concerned. I guess it does come down to how he or she spoke with the family before death, and consequently this would then instill pride and desire to keep that history alive, to remember such a hero.
 
And a hero need not be a hot shot combat pilot. No. Anyone that served must be thought of in a fitting manner. They all gave what they could, and served their country.
 
Ian W

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009