Crashed B17 24 April 1944

Hi All
First let me introduce myself Real name is Steve I am English from near Stratford on Avon and I now live in Germany in a small village called Gammersfeld in the Parish (Gemeinde)
of Wellheim. This is Northwest of Ingolstadt and about 15km North of Neuburg Donau. I am a former pilot myself until being found to have Diabetes 2 years ago. I am now one of the guys that designs seats for Audi's
 
I have been asked on behalf of the Mayor to try and research a B17 that came down near Gammersfeld on 24 April 1944.
 
What I know so far:
Crashed 24 April 1944
Probably attacking Erding or Oberpfaffenhofen near Munich.
27 B17s were lost on that mission with a total of 40 8th Air Force Aircraft that day.
According to the one local I have questioned all 10 Crew got out. He was however only 4 at the time and he may have been told something else.
 
The crew may well have got out further away, I have some locals who said it was spiraling slowly down on its own till it hit near the village.
 
 
If we can find out any specifics we intend to erect a Memorial plaque with information on the Aircraft and crew and the 8th in General
 
Can anyone help me at least with details of individual Aircraft lost on that mission?
Once I have found the Aircraft I can probably find out the crew.
 
I thank you all in advance on behalf of myself and the locals.
 
Thanks
 
Steve
 
 

Steve,
 
One possibility is 42-97477 JD A "Porky's Pig" of the 384th BG,
545th Squadron. This plane is said to have crashed at Oberfaffenhofen, Germany due to German fighters in Project Bits and Pieces. Ten crewmen became POWs. MACR 4348.
There are other possibilities but crash sites listed don't mention Gammersfeld. How close is this town to the target area and what other towns are close by? Sometimes the crash site is not particularly clear in this reference and other towns in the area may be closer to the actual site. As I said, this is a possibility.
 
Vic

Vic Walzel, brother of 1st Lt Leland H. Walzel, bombardier with the 93rd Bomb Group, 330th Squadron. KIA 6 March 1944 on his 25th mission.
www.lelandwalzel.150m.com

Steve -
The B- 17 that Vic Posted was a Lead B - 17.
Command Pilot was Capt. Floyd Edwards
CP was Capt. Robert Langlois
10 Crew POW
The 384th BG was awarded a Divisional Citation for this
Mission to Oberpfaffenhofen.
Mike

Hi
Thanks for the replies.

I have read about Porky's Pig somewhere....I will have to do some reading up again.
We are about 70Km from Oberpfaffenhofen.
Gammersfeld is near a small town Called Wellheim. We are about 30Km North West of Ingolstadt and
15Km North of Neuburg. At Ingolstadt was an Airbase, now a test centre for EADS as there also was and still is in Neuburg Donau. (Now JG 74)
(I was actually loaned out to them as a backseater on Phantoms)

If Porky's Pig was hit over Oberpfaffenhofen then it would not be out of the question that it got this far.
Locals say it was crewless when it went in. I have some locals on finding out where the exact site is.
It is apparently in some woods near my village but was supposed to have been cleared away completely.
I can get some friends on it with Metal detectors and see what we can find you never know we may find something to identify it.
If it came down in woods it would have broken into a lot of smaller pieces.

Once again thanks for the help on this and I will make sure the Bürgermeister keeps his promise on the memorial thing.

Keep the info coming.

Thanks

Steve

Hi mike
I did some checking on Porky's Pig
The info I found said that they set course for Switzerland.
That would have been the opposite direction so I think thats a slim one.
Does anyone know which units in total contributed Aircraft to this mission?
If neccesary I will try and track down all 27 to find out the most likely plane.
 

42-97477

MACR #4348 states last seen #2 engine smoking, generally shot up and heading for Switzerland
it also says, the crew bailed & all were captured at Oelbronn, 24 Apr 1944. & place in Dulag Luft
 
 
Terry T.
 

Yup thanks Terry.
 
I am now on the Footnote site
They came dowm a long way from here and I can eliminate them from my search.
So far 1 in Switzerland, 1 too close to Oberpfaffenhofen with only 3 survivors, and Porkys Pig now eliminated.
 
Will keep you all informed thanks guys.
 
I have a meeting with the locals tonight....I have to buy the beer....hopefully I can get an exact location.
Will post Photo's when I can locate it. Though it will probably only be nice photo's of tree's.
 
 

Right looks like I can scrub the 384th.

42-102446  Got to Switzerland
42-107221 Crashed Schlehdorf, near Augsburg....too far away.
42-37885 Got to switzerland
42-97372 Crashed near Fussen. Too far away.
42-313465 Crashed east of Paris.
42-38158 Hit on Bomb Run blew up in mid air. too far away.
42-97477  Porky's Pig Crashed near Bruchsal.  Too far away.

So I have eliminated 7
 
20 to go

Can I ask if there is a list of B17's lost that day on that mission?
Trying to wade through all the MACR's will take a while....though I will do that if thats what it takes.

Cavok -
Losses in Germany
92d BG - 4
303d BG - 1
306th - 5
384th - you have
96th BG - 1
388th BG - 1
390th BG - 1
Mike

Cavok,
I show 35 total B-17s lost form the 8th this date:
5 from 92 (all in Germany?)
1 from 94 (Germany?)
2 from 95 (both in Germany?)
1 from 96 (Germany?)
3 from 303 (two in Germany, one in Switzerland?)
1 from 305 (Germany?)
10 from 306 (Nine in Germany, one in France?)
7 from 384 (five in Germany, one in France, one in Switzerland)
1 from 385 (Germany?)
2 from 388 (Germany?)
1 from 390 (Kluftern, Germany?)
 
The MACR summary list available on microfilm from Maxwell indicates where the planes were last observed, which is not where they actually crashed.  The locations I listed are from this list, except for a couple that I had other info on.
 
The information from the MACRs provided by surviving crew members or from captured German records will often give a much more precise crash location than the statements from crewmembers on other planes.
 
One option you also have is to have the mayor put notices in the local papers asking if anyone there has any more information or photographs they can share.  You might get lucky and find a photo with either the tail number or the letter codes on the side of the plane.
 
One other thing for you to verify is that the local village and town names are the same as they were during the war.  I know if instances where the Nazi's renamed towns and areas, but the locals reverted back to the original names after the war.  The US documents and captured German documents may have names used during the war on them, but those are not the names currently in use.
 
Good luck,
 
Marty

Cavok,
 
Click on MACR database at the top left of the home page here and enter the date. All losses for that day will be shown.
 
Vic

Vic Walzel, brother of 1st Lt Leland H. Walzel, bombardier with the 93rd Bomb Group, 330th Squadron. KIA 6 March 1944 on his 25th mission.
www.lelandwalzel.150m.com

Cheers for all the info chaps.
I now have enough to keep me busy this week.
The Town names haven't changed but the positions given are sometimes vague.
Understandable given the circumstances. I have found 2 old boys in the village who as kids salvage bits and pieces from the wreck.
They used to throw 50 cal. ammo into a quarry and try and get it to go off!!
They did survive and are now about 70. I will be going out next weekend with him so I hope I can locate the area exactly.
It is in the middle of a heavilly forest area and maybe because of that there may still be stuff in there.
 
The tales I was told about when the 179th Infantry regiment occupied the area were also interesting. Maybe something to research later.
 
 
Now back to the paperwork research.

Right I seem to have eliminated all but one.

MACR 4278 B17 42-30730  from 306th Bg 369Sqd.

Pilot 2Lt. David Ramsey
Co.   2Lt. Edwin Miller
Nav. 2Lt. Robert Krohn
Bom.2Lt. Sterling Strange
TT.    S/sgt James Ryan
R.Op.S/Sgt John Gray
BT.    Sgt Paul Callahan
RW    Sgt Donald Miller
LW.    Sgt Carl Potter
TG.     Sgt Paul Walshin


All are listed as RTD.
Eyewitness Statement:

"At approximately 1355 hrs., near Augsburg, Germany Lt. Ramsey was hit by Fighters;
No 3 and No 4 engines were out when he peeled out of formation. No chutes were observed.

It is one of the few with no German reports attached and about the only one that has no follow up info on it.
 
If it isn't this one I am a bit stumped.



Can anyone help out?

I looked at the MACRs last night as well.  The closest ones I could find were as follows:
42-107200, crashed "15 miles NW of Oberpfaffenhofen"
42-31768, crashed "near Mainburg"
42-31901, crashed "near Straubing near Ingelstadt" and
42-39776, crashed "near Sainbach, Aichbach County".
On Google Earth these were the closest ones I could see to your Village. 
 
First over Germany had descritions about the planes going down this day, but I didn't see any more detained information about specific crash locations in Germany.
 
Marty

Hi Marty
Thanks mate.
I found those as well.
As I said the only one I can't find a location of is 42-30730 and all crew are listed as returned.
I can't find it as landed in Switzerland so its about the only open one I have. It is the only one I can't eliminate.
I can't find any Pow reports either....which is strange. The records may well have been at Neuburg/Donau Airbase though.
Maybe I can try there but I doubt there will be anything.

I will get on the locals asap. But I doubt there will be many photo's.
I will however check
 
By the way that should read Ingolstadt, the plane came down in siegenburg. Siegenburg has a current Luftwaffe Bomb range.
Ingolstadt is where I work for Audi.
 
 

Cavok,
 
 Part of the crew of 42-30730 WW B/P "Dearly Beloved" were POWs according to Project Bits and Pieces. MACR 4278  I checked the NARA database and found 2Lt David B. Ramsey, 2Lt Edwin W. Miller and 2Lt Robert I. Krohn on the list. I didn't follow up on the rest of the crew as it says they were all interned. Crash location said to be Augsburg, Germany. Don't know how this fits but that is what is given.
 
Crew list:
2Lt David B. Ramsey (P) POW
2Lt Edwin W. Miller (CP) POW
2Lt Robert I. Krohn (N) POW
Lt Thomas P. Cliney (B) INT
S/Sgt Arnold D. Springer (TT) INT
T/Sgt John G. Miller (RO) INT
S/Sgt Fasrris R. Rashid (BT) INT
Sgt Herbert D. Wooten (LW) INT
S/Sgt Albert J. Gentile (RW) INT
Lt William Leisr (TG) INT
 
Vic
 

Vic Walzel, brother of 1st Lt Leland H. Walzel, bombardier with the 93rd Bomb Group, 330th Squadron. KIA 6 March 1944 on his 25th mission.
www.lelandwalzel.150m.com

To be honest I am begining to doubt that the aircraft concerned was a B17 and also that the date
was 24.04.1944
 
While research I stumbled upon MACR 6940 which was for a B24 12.07. 1944
The Location ties up exactly with where the locals have told me it should be.
This presents me with a different kettle of fish as it had a full bomb load. The pilot was killed which is contrary to
what I was told also.  It would however account for tales of the local kids getting incendieries to ignite by chucking them into a quarry!
According to the reports they recovered a fair bit of kit there as well.
 
 
It could of course be that there are 2 in close proximity.
 
 
 

Cavok,
got your mail, puhh we have to meet us... I only know one crash in this area: 12th July 1944 B-24 from the 446th BG 705st BS (Bungay) Its all I know from head. Have to look in my notices. you can find a picture of the "Guess who's here" in the net.

Did made research about "Guess who's here"... I know the guys you had met in Hutting. Was one of them a Mr. Göbel or a Mr. Mayr? I know the crashsite too. I was in contact with some crewmembers years ago. The copilot is still living. He told, the reason for the crash was not "hit by flak", it was a technical failure.

Why we could'nt meet us earlier? We live only a few miles away... . Last September I was visiting the crashsite with some eyewittness and the grandnephew of the pilot, who was here for a trip. The pilot 2nd Lt. Herbert C. Culp was burried in "Unterhausen" near Neuburg/Do. All other crewmembers where pow. Have lots of more...

some weeks ago I also was looking for informations about the 179th Infantry.... looks like that we have the same hobby...stay in contact....

regards
Stefan

Hi Stefan
I contacted you and would like to say thanks for the info we can meet for a beer asap.
 
Thanks
 
 

42-30730, "Dearly Beloved"
This one is the one my father, Carl L. Potter was on.  He was shot down on April 24, 1944.  He said that everyone got out.  I know that 2Lt. Ramsey made it back to the US as he mailed my parents Christmas cards every year until he passed.  My father ended up in Stalag VXVII B.  I'm not sure where 2Lt. Ramsey was.

Jeanie

Also, 42 30730 was headed for Switzerland.  From what I recall from my father, they were about 11 miles from Switzerland where they landed, or that's what they figured.
 
Jeanie