New Questions:
 
THE BOMBLINE -- I'm thinking this was an imaginary line delineating where it was safe to drop ordinance without fear of hitting friendly forces?
 
D.P. GUNS -- listed as targets in Grandpa's log book (see attachment)

[image]local://upfiles/13554/88B14E062A194E05883C4F2A829660D1.jpg[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Grandson of 1st Lt. Bernell A. "Barney" Forster (1921-2007)
347th Fighter Squadron/350th Fighter Group

D.P. = Dual Purpose

 Hi Tom
THE BOMBLINE -- I'm thinking this was an imaginary line delineating where it was safe to drop ordinance without fear of hitting friendly forces?
 
D.P. GUNS -- listed as targets in Grandpa's log book (see attachment)

Bombline I think was when the bombs were armed or like you said.
DP guns not sure ,donall has a good point because 88mm were used for air and ground targets.
Rick

Intersting word delineating..I almost thought you made it up..so I looked it up.
 
de·lin·e·at·ed, de·lin·e·at·ing, de·lin·e·ates
1. To draw or trace the outline of; sketch out.

ORIGINAL: Terry T.
Intersting word "delineating"..I almost thought you made it up..so I looked it up.

Terry --
Now that your rash charges of neologism have been answered, perhaps you (or anyone else) can help me out with this: Damage Categories. Seen in DOR's as CAT. I, CAT. II or CAT. III (maybe more?) I know it must be a severity rating, but how many categories were there, and what were the parameters?

Grandson of 1st Lt. Bernell A. "Barney" Forster (1921-2007)
347th Fighter Squadron/350th Fighter Group

Damage Category usually ranged one to five--one the least and five the worst..as far as I know the Brits came up with the Category numbers..I think a lot of book authors opted for the Cat numbers for easier description for damage classification, other than the more complicated type used by the AAF.
 
US Navy used A thru M..A being the worst and M being the least.
 
From all the USAAF accident reports & aircraft history cards, I have read I never have seen Category numbers listed.
 
Terry T.

Thanks, Terry. Here's a couple examples of "Roman Numeral" categories culled from DOR's.   I have only seen categories II and III (I'm assuming the existence of I), there may be more -- I haven't looked at a whole lot of DOR's.  Must be an official USAAF term (maybe just a 12th AF term?), just curious about the level of damage required for each category.  I'm thinking II is "serious but flyable",  since in both of the attached cases, the P-47's made it back. 

[image]local://upfiles/13554/7CF664CD213E4AD98A513823B7298FBB.jpg[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Grandson of 1st Lt. Bernell A. "Barney" Forster (1921-2007)
347th Fighter Squadron/350th Fighter Group

One more:  At the end of the narrative section of the DOR, the pilots who flew the missions are listed.  Some pilots have asterisks after their names.  The likely explanation seems to be that they were the flight leaders?  I further tend to assume that the pilots are listed in an order that relects their position on the mission?  Just looking for some verification, as I have proven the old adage about assumptions on many an occasion before...



EXAMPLE:
[image]local://13554/6129C5D9684C4FD8A4CF3561CC57634A.JPG[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Grandson of 1st Lt. Bernell A. "Barney" Forster (1921-2007)
347th Fighter Squadron/350th Fighter Group

ORIGINAL: Terry T.

Damage Category usually ranged one to five--one the least and five the worst..as far as I know the Brits came up with the Category numbers..I think a lot of book authors opted for the Cat numbers for easier description for damage classification, other than the more complicated type used by the AAF.

US Navy used A thru M..A being the worst and M being the least.

From all the USAAF accident reports & aircraft history cards, I have read I never have seen Category numbers listed.

Terry T.

 
Okay, I've had a chance (thanks Keith!) to look at few more DOR's and lucked out -- some officers filling out the form did so in a bit more detail than others.
 
Looks like there were 3 categories of damage: I, II and III.  If you look at the attached image in the blue, I looks like damage that can be repaired by the unit and III apears to be a ship beyond repair.  A logical guess is that II (the missions split by the red line) might be damaging requiring the attention of a service squadron.
 
Obviously Terry T has records of other ratings. This may have just been an MTO thing, a 12th AF thing or maybe even a 350th FG syatem? 


[image]local://13554/9C72C0BDC1AB47188E511945AD44DF7D.JPG[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Grandson of 1st Lt. Bernell A. "Barney" Forster (1921-2007)
347th Fighter Squadron/350th Fighter Group

I know this is an older messag and I imagine you have figured out most of what you were asking. Here is a quick not as regards the asterix next to the name. In most cases, it is the poor pilot who was hit. You won't find these on DORs without a/c damage.
As regards the sortie/ mission confusion, I still do not see a clear description. I asked my dad but he can't recall why he wrote what he wrote. But to give you a taste, his first sortie was on his 16th operational mission. My dad flew 153 operational missions with 81 sorties. He flew half his missions in the P-39 and the other half in the P-47. Nearly all of the P-47 missions were also sorties. Out of 82 P-39 missions, only 15 were counted as sorties. Air sea rescues were not listed as sorties, shooting up Barrage balloons while on coastal patrol or convoy patrol were not sited as sorties. Some of the P-39 sorties include the following:
Mission #16, Inc Sortie, sortie #1
Mission #19, Sea Sweep, sortie #2
Mission #22, Sea Sweep, sortie #3
Missions #27, 28, 29, Convoy Patrol, Sorties #4#5#6
Mission # 49, Convoy Patrol, Sortie #7
Mission # 52, Convoy Patrol, Sortie #8
Mission # 59,#60,#61, Convoy Patrol, Sorties #9,10,11
Mission #64, 65, Convoy Patrols #12,#13

Not all Sea sweeps nor convoy patrols were sorties. He did yes take off and land on all his flights (well three of the landings were crashes). But of his 72 operational missions in the p-47 only one was not considered a sortie, that was a air sea rescue mission.

The F/O question seems pretty well covered. Dutch Miller would be the best to answer that from an F/O's perspective. He was one of the Americans who went to Canada so he could start flying sooner in the RCAF. He started as an F/O but then jumped ranks to Captain.

As far as order listed and order flown in the mission on the DORs, For the most part this is true. But you cannot count on it all of the time. When you compare things such as Air Medals, DFCs, MACRs, and other documents that list more detail than the DORs, you will come across some contradictions.

As far as Categories, I don't recall seeing anything higher than Cat II on a DOR. I see Cat I and Cat II caused by flak and bomb blasts. I think the categories may indicate what can be fixed at base and what needs to be sent to the depot. But don't quote me on that one. Then I see "Destroyed in Crash" and "Destroyed by Flak". I saw a Cat II caused by a wheel failing to come down on landing.

Stay in touch.
Keith

Little Vic II -Keith-345th FS archivist

Little Vic II


I know this is an older messag and I imagine you have figured out most of what you were asking. Here is a quick not as regards the asterix next to the name. In most cases, it is the poor pilot who was hit. You won't find these on DORs without a/c damage.
As regards the sortie/ mission confusion, I still do not see a clear description. I asked my dad but he can't recall why he wrote what he wrote. But to give you a taste, his first sortie was on his 16th operational mission. My dad flew 153 operational missions with 81 sorties. He flew half his missions in the P-39 and the other half in the P-47. Nearly all of the P-47 missions were also sorties. Out of 82 P-39 missions, only 15 were counted as sorties. Air sea rescues were not listed as sorties, shooting up Barrage balloons while on coastal patrol or convoy patrol were not sited as sorties. Some of the P-39 sorties include the following:
Mission #16, Inc Sortie, sortie #1
Mission #19, Sea Sweep, sortie #2
Mission #22, Sea Sweep, sortie #3
Missions #27, 28, 29, Convoy Patrol, Sorties #4#5#6
Mission # 49, Convoy Patrol, Sortie #7
Mission # 52, Convoy Patrol, Sortie #8
Mission # 59,#60,#61, Convoy Patrol, Sorties #9,10,11
Mission #64, 65, Convoy Patrols #12,#13

Not all Sea sweeps nor convoy patrols were sorties. He did yes take off and land on all his flights (well three of the landings were crashes). But of his 72 operational missions in the p-47 only one was not considered a sortie, that was a air sea rescue mission.

Tom,
Once I break into the DORs of the P-39 years, perhaps the sortie will be more clear. I have yet to digitize that part of my research. But I can tell you the documents from the P-39 years have very little detail compared to what you have come accustomed to with the DORs of the P-47 years.
K

Donall...TheGerman 88 flak gun would be an example of a Dual PUrpoe gun...it originally was an anti-tank, that could, and was used, as an anti-aricraft flak gun.

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Tom.
I think I have this one figured out. I am posting information from the archives Hugh Dow has been working on for so long. It is a work in progress. But his work breaks down the sorties and mention changes in definitions. You started this thread with the topic of DOR terminology. But for me, the confusion arrived more from log book entries. On the DORs of the 350th FG which you are viewing, for the most part you are looking at offensive missions flown in the P-47s. So in that context, it is pretty straight forward. One four plane flight is one mission, four sorties. In Hugh's work, he breaks down the sorties as offensive and defensive. At one point (Oct 44) the sorties were separated in this fashion.

There were 5,400 sorties directed toward the enemy and 16,600 sorties in defense of troop ships, cargo vessels, naval units, harbors  and othe allied installations. During this time aircraft were airborne  approximately 39,000 hours.
From research it appears the 5400 individual sorties directed against the enemy includes all of the following categories of missions: Bombing and or strafing missions against land and sea based targets, bomber escort missions, fighter sweeps over enemy territory, water or land, and weather and or target recon over enemy waters or land, plus all interception sorties against confirmed enemy recon and bomber aircraft.
Also 61 of the 75 pilots who flew from England to Africa in Jan and Feb of 43 completed the flight to French Morocco. These 61 and two others (Wilson who landed in Spain and English who landed in Portugal but returned to group) were all awarded a combat sortie for the 6 to 7 hr flight across enemy control Bay of Biscay.
As you know from the 350th Group history book, 5796 operational missions were flown which comprised of 20,054 sorties.
Hugh has worked to break down the total sorties by types of flights. For example, a dawn and dusk patrol sortie would become a combat sortie once the a/c reached enemy space.  If weather did not permit the flight to make it to enemy territory, it was not listed as a combat sortie but it was still part of an operational mission.
Also, The accounting of offensive vs defensive sorties was different in the Sept 44 to May 45 period when the group was under the TAC Air command compared to the previous time under Coastal Air Command and its successors. It appears that all operational sorties  in the latter period were grouped together as combat sorties.

So I deduce from this that in log books, pilots were tracking their combat sorties. I believe as was mentioned earlier in this thread, one flight and one take off  may very well be considered a sortie - if it was during an operational mission, then one would determine if it was an offensive sortie or a defensive sortie.
I would add that flights such as courier runs, or transition flights (from the P-39 to the P-47), or "practice skip bombing" (which the P-39 pilots did when they were developing this tactic with the P-39 which was never designed for this) are not listed as missions at all, nor sorties.
So technically, it may be true that one takeoff and one landing is a completed sortie. One takeoff and being shot down or otherwise crashing may also be a sortie, I am not sure, making it home may be part of the military criteria, etymologically it is not, the word sortie comes from the past participle of the French word "sortir": to go out.  But what we are seeing in the log books as regards sorties listed and numbered by the pilots, I believe,  are only offensive combat sorties. The word "award" is applied to combat sorties.

We can say... in fact Hugh Dow does say :"Obviously, thousands of non-operational sorties also were flown".

Hope this helps Tom.

Keith