B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea

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WillowRun
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B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/24/2007 06:57:36 PM
The B-24 was obviously not the best "fish in the pond!"  In fact the fracture point at station four (Center Wing) was notoriously well known.  Whenever possible, "ditching at sea" was usually not one of the preferred options!  Is there anyone of the Vets or children of Vets who have had experience of these tragedies?  Statistically, the Lib would sink within approximately 2 minutes based on weather and sea conditions.  I've including a "generic" ditching photo.   Many books on the Lib show fractured Libs attempting to stay afloat.     Steven 
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Steven P. Puhl
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Hugh
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/24/2007 07:06:48 PM
Great photo....but, I don't think that particular B-24 is going to sink; it's beached.  Hope you get some good responses from those who are familiar with the problems of ditching a B-24.   Good question!

Terry T.
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/24/2007 08:03:38 PM
That B-24 looks like it may have landed short of its runway or forced-landed on a beach at the waters edge, and now the tide is coming in, since the gear is down. 
 
 As in any ditching, it all depends on how the weather & water conditions are.
 
Terry T.
 

Tulsaboy
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/24/2007 09:42:15 PM
I am in contact with a veteran who survived such a ditching in the Adriatic Sea.  If you want information, please contact me.
 
kevin
 

Darin Scorza
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/25/2007 06:03:22 AM
Two crews in the 458th BG ditched in the English Channel.
 
March 16, 1944 - 2Lt Neil A.J. Peters crew: http://www.458bg.com/crew69peters.htm
 
August 5, 1944 - 2Lt James B. Prevost crew: http://www.458bg.com/crewaj9prevost.htm
 
Peters' crew suffered eight men KIA and two men rescued, while Prevost's crew had one man KIA and nine rescued.  Each man on Prevost's crew gave their own account of the ditching.
Darin Scorza
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WillowRun
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/25/2007 06:17:39 AM
Hugh,    Thanks!  You are correct!  Not a good choice of photos, but I used it for the "thread starter" as I did not have another one on hand.   I've included a FO WR photo from the early stations of the Final Assembly build process prior to the outer wings being attached.   I've used this photo in other posts before (it also appears in my bio) as it shows the "spring loaded-life-raft-hatches."  I recall having seen several photos in Lib books of "ditched Libs" where their backs were broken.  I believe that at CO, they did do "controlled" testing.  At FO WR there was nearby Lake Erie, but basically FO WR, once into the manufacturing and assembly processes, had relied on CO for its testing and data and structural engineering changes if applicable in this regard.     Steven 

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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/25/2007 07:29:15 AM
I never ditched in my tour, Jan. 45 to war's end. However, we were briefed on ditching. Here's a few comments. While we were told the 24 could sink in 2 mins. so get out fast, we were also told that there were instances of a 24 staying afloat almost 2 hours after ditching. Two other things we knew. The Adriatic was warm as opposed to the North sea where the 8th ditched. They were told, I believe, that as much as a few mins. in the sea was probably fatal. Another fact for us  to consider was the use of the island of Vis for an emergency landing. Vis was at the Northwest corner of the Adriatic, and could be reached far sooner than our home bases.
Nevertheless, I opted to fly hone on 3 engines and try to make base, which I did, rather than the 2 other altermatives, Vis or ditching.
RHD

johnpault
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/25/2007 09:45:18 AM
Steven:  You might want to read the Medal of Honor account of Lt. Col. Leon R. Vance and his ditching experience.  John Thompson

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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/25/2007 10:22:46 AM
Darin:
Peter crew did not all die as a result of the ditching..
 




Name
Pos 

Status 

Date 

Notes 

 2Lt Neil A. J. Peters
 P

 KIA 

16 Mar 1944

Ditched in Channel

 2Lt Theodore F. Wagner
 CP

 KIA 

16 Mar 1944

Ditched in Channel

 2Lt Gasper DeSimone

WIA

16 Mar 1944

Ditched in Channel

 2Lt John N. Hulse

 KIA 

16 Mar 1944

Bailed out into Channel

 S/Sgt George W. Conlogue
RO 

 WIA 

16 Mar 1944

Ditched in Channel

 Sgt Richard G. Lowry
TT/E 

KIA

16 Mar 1944

Ditched in Channel

 S/Sgt James J. Duffy
BTG 

KIA 

 16 Mar 1944

Bailed out into Channel

 T/Sgt Carl P. Lee
RWG 

KIA

16 Mar 1944

Bailed out into Channel

 Sgt Michael F. Marino
LWG 

KIA

16 Mar 1944

Bailed out into Channel

 Sgt Peter F. Morrone
TG 

 KIA 

16 Mar 1944

Bailed out into Channel 
 
 
*
 
Prevost crew




Name
 Pos

 Status

 Date

Notes

 1Lt James B. Prevost

 RFS 

Jan 1945

Removed from Flying Status

 F/O Allen Boorse, Jr.
CP 

KIA

5 Aug 1944

Lost in ditching

 2Lt Astor Perry

 RFS 

Jan 1945

Removed from Flying Status

 F/O Robert F. Kearney

 UNK

--

Unknown

 S/Sgt Henry C. Howard
RO 

 RFS 

9 Nov 1944

Trsf to AAF 101 (Cent Med Bd)

 S/Sgt James C. Quillen

UNK

--

Unknown

 S/Sgt Raymond E. Barto
BTG 

 CT 

10 Feb 1945

Rest Home Leave

 Sgt John C. Colbert
LWG 

 UNK 

--

Unknown

 Sgt Benjamin W. Dankosky
RWG 

 UNK 

--

Unknown

 Sgt George E. Streeter
TG 

 UNK 

--

Unknown
 
 
Terry T.

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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/25/2007 10:30:48 AM

Darin Scorza
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/25/2007 12:28:37 PM
Terry,
 
Correct.  Three men were picked up, but only two survived.  Sgt Lowry died shortly after.
Darin Scorza
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bjsassy90
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/25/2007 05:54:48 PM
Dodd, we did 2 of the three. Went home on 3. One throwing oil
& backup for one of the three that was running rough.
Landed once on two on Vis island. Bummed a ride to Bari on a C47 that was bringing in equipment for retriving some of the
stranded AC. Our AC was later recovered.
That big rock at one end of the "runway" & ditch at the other end was not very inviting. Luckily we still had brakes.
bjsassy90

WillowRun
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/25/2007 07:13:47 PM
Robert,      As usual, thanks for your post!  Also to those who have sent PM's and have posted, I'll get around to responding while researching.  We know that the B-17 would remain afloatand have a better chance for the crew to exit than on the Lib.  Structural integrity and conditions were the contrbuting factors.   Your comment, Robert, about the water temp also struck a chord.  You are right that the 15th had a better chance than the 8th in that regard.  Anyway, neither situation was acceptable.  Hopefully, more actual remembrances will come forward.
 
John Paul,    thanks for the tip on the CMH recipient!    
Steven   
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Steven P. Puhl
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/26/2007 01:10:37 AM
Steven:

Here is what William Carigan wrote about Ditching in a B-24 in his book "Ad Lib: Flying the B-24 Liberator in World War Two." I did not include the portion on crew procedures to prepare to ditch and drills.

“Warning: if time permits, waist windows should be jettisoned through the belly hatch to avoid danger of their closing and jamming shut on impact. It is most important that all bottom hatches be closed and that the top hatches and waist windows be open. …

“Ditching positions: … there are three suitable general positions: the flight deck, the rear compartment forward of the waist windows, and the half deck. [Above the rear bomb bay.] The half deck is one of the best ditching positions in the airplane and as many men as possible should be there with feet braced forward, protected with coats and cushions from sharp edges. The men on the half deck could aid others if injured by water or carried back into the tail. …

“The dangers from a hard landing are that the top turret can be torn loose; and if bomb-bay doors are caved inward, water may fracture No. 6 bulkhead and flood the rear compartment. …

“Technique of landing the airplane [on water]: to land the airplane properly, the pilot must determine the direction of the wind, wind velocity, and the character of the waves…. When flying over water the pilot must develop some judgment about the seas, waves, ground swell and wind. This is another skill you need to develop before the grim event.

In a B-24 ditching, avoid a high rate of sink. That’s one reason you jettisoned everything except the shadows. Get the airplane slowed down before you start your glide, and control the rate of descent with power if possible. Approach the surface with half flaps, bringing down full flaps to slow the speed as you flare out. Best technique is to approach at low airspeed and low rate of descent. As everywhere else, grease it in—it means more here. Don’t attempt to land tail low, because this puts too much strain on station 6. Don’t drop it in or you will collapse the bomb-bay doors and force water against station 6, to the consternation of the crewmen in the aft section.

Note: I [William Carigan] never ditched the B-24, which is attended with a somewhat low rate of success; but the techniques are those recommended by ditching survivors.

Landing on a calm sea: if the surface of the sea is calm, without whitecaps or waves, land upwind.

Landing on a swell: when whitecaps exist but foam is not being blown into spray, ditch along the top and parallel with the swell.

Landing in high waves: if foam is whipped into spray, wind velocity is too great to land crosswind. Ditch upwind on upslope of wave. This is the procedure for a high wind and a heavy sea.

Caution: there may be more than one impact. Warn the crew to hold positions until the airplane comes to rest.

Procedure after landing: The airplane will usually remain afloat from one to ten minutes. As soon as the aircraft comes to rest, engineer will pull releases on the life rafts. Crew should exit as fast as possible with necessary equipment as follows.

Through the flight-deck hatch (each man inflates his life vest after clearing hatch): navigator first, receives emergency radio (if stored on flight deck) from radio operator or flight engineer and goes to left raft. Radio operator second after passing emergency radio to navigator, goes to left raft. Engineer third, receives ration box from copilot and goes to right raft. Copilot fourth, after handing ration box to flight engineer, goes to right raft and takes command. Pilot fifth, hands out water and other supplies and goes to the left raft and takes command.

“From rear compartment (life vests should be inflated after individuals are clear of the waist windows so vests won't interfere with exits if hatches are under water): right waist gunner or nose gunner first through right waist window to right raft, carrying water or other supplies, followed by bombardier to right raft. Left waist gunner first through left waist window to left raft, holding ration-box rope; tail gunner second, through left waist window after throwing out radio (if in his charge) holding tightly to rope, to left raft.


“Note: if time and circumstances permit, take out the frequency meter and be sure to keep it dry. (Emphasis mine.) By attaching antenna from the Gibson Girl emergency radio to frequency meter, it can be operated as an efficient receiver to provide two-way communication for several hours. ...

“Life Rafts: Two type A-2 life rafts are carried in the fuselage above the wings and slightly aft of the top turret. To release either raft from inside the aiplane, pull the T-handle, on early aircraft located at the rear of the flight deck left side.... The pull cable releases the lock pins which hold the life raft doors closed and allows the spring bungee to throw the life raft out, clear of the fuselage. A ripcord attached to the raft cradle automatically opens the valve that controls the raft inflation from the CO2 bottle. To release either raft from outside the airplane, the lever flush in the fuselage aft of each door should be lifted and twisted 90 degrees. This action pulls the same cable and releases the raft in the same manner as described above. Do not release rafts until airplane is at rest in the water. …"

Ken
Ken Alexander
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/26/2007 01:18:19 AM
From what I've read, and watched on video, a ditching in a B-24 was iffy at best. More often than not it was a disaster. Crews were advised that ditching was a last resort. The main reason was the bomb bay doors. You were sitting a 36,000 plus lbs. bomber into the water at 90 plus mph. directly onto the bomb bay doors. They were flimsy and they almost never remained intact in a water landing. As a result, they collapsed inward allowing the rear of the now open bomb bay to act as a giant scoop for the water. It often broke the back of the plane and filled the rear compartment of the fuselage with water in a pretty short order. I have read that anything more than two minutes before the plane sank was pretty optimistic.

The only exits from the plane in a water landing were the navigator's dome, the top escape hatch just behind the pilot and the waist windows. (Two escape hatches were added aft of the top turret in later models.)

You can imagine the chaos that much have ensued. The guys in back were often thrown around by the impact. The top turret could break away and fall into the plane. Sometimes the nose folded up and back, pinning the guys on the flight deck.

Unless the seas and piloting were perfect the results were seldom good.

Ken
Ken Alexander
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/26/2007 01:20:31 AM
From the December 1965 Issue, Volume 2 number 4, of "Air Classics" Magazine. An article called: "Prepare to Ditch!"

While the actual preparing and ditching portion of the article is short, I thought you might be interested in this excerpt:

"Deadsticking a B-24 in, all engines out...

"At the last split-second, Bishop and 'Vam' took their feet off the rudder and braced fthem against the dashboard to prevent their legs from being pinned. 83 came down on ailerons and elevators only... wheels up, flaps down. She smacked with a terrible, rending crash. The chicken-wire bomb bay ripped off. Otherwise it was a perfect landing, the bomber mushing down on the two rear bomb doors. The rear bulkhead had absorbed most of the shock and although the men in the waist section had been bounced around in the 90-mph collision, those on the flight deck had been little more than jarred.

"The Liberator quickly filled with water which rushed in through the bomb bays and the open nose. It engulfed the pilot's compartment in a flood of dark green and everything went suddenly dark. Navigator Gill was out first, then the bombardier Davis. The latter slipped off the fast submerging wing, and before he could inflate his preserver, was swept out to sea.

"The gunners dove headfirst out the settling waist windows, but radio operator Norris was trapped inside. Gunner Tom Boothby dove back into the wreck, and disentangling his clothing from a protruding rib, brought Norris to the surface. Copilot Vam, Flight Engineer Holmes and the top turret gunner got out next and inflated two life rafts. Everyone was accounted for but Bishop.

"Below on the flight deck of the settling Liberator, Bishop lay drowning and unconcious. While trying to climb out of the submerged compartment he had been met by a barrage of boots, Davis' and Gill's, climbing out ahead of him. Knocked back into the pilot's station, he swam around, found a crash axe and began hacking away at the sinking windows, desperately trying to get out. But his blows had little effect in the water. He only succeeded in gashing his habd and was passing out when Gill reached down and pulled him out. His harness saved him. He was the only member still wearing one and by pulling on it, Gill was able to lift his water-logged body. Otherwise both would have gone down with the plane.

"Aboard the life raft, Vam administered artificial respiration to Bishop's inert form, and within 15 minutes all were picked up by an Italian fishing boat..."

"Interestingly, two weeks later the crew again ditched at sea with Vam as the copilot and Vam suffered a broken leg, but everyone else, again escaped serious injury."
Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

fana
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/26/2007 02:41:42 AM
There is an interesting account in the "44th BG Roll Of Honour" website regarding the ditching of a 68BS aircraft on the 11th July '44. Four of the aircrew survived; one of them, Sgt Garvey had been involved in a bale-out  a week previously over the UK!!

Kiwi Escape
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/26/2007 05:50:52 AM
Unfortunately the pic that started this thread is actually a "fake".  Either CGI or a model.  The attched pic is more demonstrative of a ditching in these circumstances.

Pete

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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/26/2007 05:52:56 AM
However,....crash landing on a beach, with the tide out,  often produced a different result

Pete

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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/26/2007 10:49:27 AM
Pete,  Thanks for the "fake" warning, and I shall alert the "Goggling site."  As I stated in post #6, I standed "corrected," but since I didn't have a photo in my collection, I was hunting.   I appreciate your attachments.     Steven
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Steven P. Puhl
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/27/2007 12:32:54 PM
Ken,  Have not gotten a copy of Carigan's book yet.  Thought I had it!!  As usual great response and information.  I've been a tad swamped at work  (GM's been in the news lately), and I haven't done much reading, research or checking the sites.  Thanks!      Steven
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/27/2007 10:41:34 PM
I have three "Cloth Survival Charts" including the instructional chart issued to B-24 crews for use in the event they had to ditch at sea.  My dad (a bombardier) said that the likelihood of ever getting to use them was so low no one bothered to read the instructions.
 
Mike50

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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 09/30/2007 09:13:07 AM

Here is what William Carigan wrote about Ditching in a B-24 in his book "Ad Lib: Flying the B-24 Liberator in World War Two." I did not include the portion on crew procedures to prepare to ditch and drills.

ORIGINAL: Ken a B24 Fan
 
Ken,  I'll look over on the Book Corner sub-forum, but I do not have this book and have had a tough time locating it.  Any leads?  I'm also into "used books"  so hopefully I can find one.  I've even been to a used book store in AA, but didn't have much  success.   Thanks!   Steven 

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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 10/07/2007 08:49:44 AM
Rummaging through some of my books, I came across: The Pilot's Information File 1944, a Schiffer Military History Book, 1995, in which there was a section on "ditching, PIF 8-3-1 > 8-3-6, REVISED: 01DE43. There was a lot of "generic" information and sketches, along with a detailed description and sketches for the ditching of a B-17.  For the B-24, there was only a sketch of the crew's "ditching positions" and a brief paragraph that stated:
      "Ditching belt in the aft compartment is attached to gun mounts.  Men brace against it as shown.  Flight engineer, on cockpit step, also should use a ditching belt. Otherwise he should lie on floor, feet against step, knees bent slightly. Fasten down all loose eqipment.  Hold position until plane stops.  If help is near,crew should use one-man raft parachute and bail out."
This all seems a "little fuzzy" to me and even the sequencing seems miss-aligned.  However, I understand that this was generic and not necessarily the actual directives.   Just thought I'd share this.   Steven
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Steven P. Puhl
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 10/11/2007 11:04:26 AM
Ken,  Indeed a great little book!  Very interesting and helpful.  In comparing this specific selection, along with the recollections of your father, would make the casual reader understand why it is more important to remain airborne as long as possible, conditions withstanding, rather than "ditching."  Also had an "extra" surprise inside the "used" book which I posted on the "Book Corner," Looking for Help, Post #6.   Thanks again!  Steven
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 10/11/2007 10:31:16 PM
My name is Walt Paukstis, I was a Master Sgt. Engineer and Crew Chief Engineer. I am 92 now and was in the 82nd Bobm Sqdn 12th Bomb Group .  I was shot down Thanksgiving day 1942 at Talague Bay in a B-24, spent six months in the hospital and then went back to Burma and India until the end of the war flying a mix of different aircraft.  

I was in a group called the Earthquakers.
I was hoping to find anyone that I may have known or anyone that have information on Talague Bay, I spent an entire night in a small raft with two other survivors during a Naval battle before being picked up by a Destroyer.

I would love to communicate with anyone and share stories etc.



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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 10/12/2007 05:26:56 PM
Steven,
Ken was spot on with his observation that the bomb bay doors posed a real problem in ditching a B-24. Al Blue notes in his book “The B-24 Liberator” that in later B-24's, four pairs of detachable “bomb bay door stiffeners” or “ditching ribs” were added to production models. “[They] were carried on board the aircraft and slipped into place by the crew prior to ditching He also briefly discusses the canvas “ditching belts” or slings, noting that two were added on the deck over the bomb bay, protecting a total of six men.

The book Terry T. cites above (with link to Amazon) devotes three pages to ditching the B-24. It includes three pictures of the tests run by ditching a B-24D in the St. James river. (It is not a pretty sight.) There are also somewhat extensive quotes from those tests.

Interestingly, the author, Frederick A. Johnsen, cites small-sample tests before D-Day that showed “more than a fourth” of B-17's tested sank in 1 minute, while only 14% of the Liberators sank that quickly. In those tests, 22% of the '24's stayed afloat between 10 and 15 minutes. (It was an admittedly small sample.)

No one disputes that survivability was higher in the B-17, though. Again citing Al Blue, “Eighth Air Force statistics for 1943-5...show that a B-17 crewman's chances of surviving a ditching were 37.9% while the equivalent B-24 figure was 26.5%.

(And God bless authors who index their books. I don't know how long it would have taken me to dig this information up otherwise.)

Reed

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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 10/13/2007 11:46:03 AM
Reed,  Thanks for the post!   Two comments:  "Amen" on indexes (or indices)!  Some great books become a "nightmare" without them.  Also I am trying to ascertain if "ditching" tests  were performed at FO WR either on nearby Belleville Lake (as part of the initial checkout flight, "dummy" bombs were salvoed over Lake Erie and Belleville Lake).  I do not have "first-hand" knowledge of this, nor in my notes and records have any indication of  "on-site testing." As for the bomb bay door issue mentioned by Ken, I've also read the same.  Best Regards!  Steven
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 10/13/2007 03:07:31 PM
I have been reading up on the subject of B-17 v B-24 ditching..seems B-17 with its large wing had a better glide rate at slow speeds compared to the B-24 with its low drag Davis wing.
 
  Because of that the B-17s could ditch at a much slower speed than the B-24 which equates to less damge upon impact. B-24 ditching at a faster speed would have more damage, although the USN pilot flying PB4Y did a very good job ditching the B-24,  as most of them had flown the PBY before transitioning to PB4Ys.
 
  The Navy pilot who flew PBY's would use the full stall landing method for quick set down. The ex-PBY pilots flying the PB4Ys used the same method, a full stall tail low ditching, with better result's & less damage to the aircraft, making for better  better crew survivability.  The slower the glide rate the better the ditching..
 
 
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 10/13/2007 04:55:35 PM

The Navy pilot who flew PBY's would use the full stall landing method for quick set down. The ex-PBY pilots flying the PB4Ys used the same method, a full stall tail low ditching, with better result's & less damage to the aircraft, making for better better crew survivability. The slower the glide rate the better the ditching..

 
Terry,   Thanks for the post!   It also was an interesting point on the ditching technique comparing the profile of the Davis wing and the larger 17 wing.  After reading through today's posts and new threads, I picked up my copy of Above An Angry Sea: United States Navy B-24 Liberator and PB4Y-2 Privateer by Alan Carey.  I skimmed through it looking for examples of possible "ditching techniques" which you mentioned.  Unfortunately, the various tales of these Vets did not have too many "survival tales."  Again, I have not really read the book in depth.  It's on my list.   Best Regards!   Steven
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 10/13/2007 06:08:59 PM
Steven;
 
 Somewhere on the VP site I posted a mishap that was at that time a perfect PB4Y/B-24 ditching including where everyone was to be seated..however I forgot which one it was, as I have been posting mishaps on that site for almost 10ys.
 
 
Terry T.

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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 10/14/2007 08:17:57 PM
Terry,     Thanks for the post!   I've been searching more lately for a DVD which might have a "ditching section" in it.  I have seen, somewhere, a "Hollywood" training trailer (about ten minutes long) about "gunnery training" and am sure I had seen a similar one on "ditching."  I will continue to search.  Best Regards!     Steven
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 10/14/2007 08:45:53 PM
Walt,   Good evening, Sir!  From you recollection, are there any more details about the Lib to which you were assigned in '42, i.e., Nose Art or s/n which might be recorded somewhere? I would assume it to be a B-24D possibly with MODS. Were you associated with the CBI after your hospitalization?    Whatever you have,  I am sure that someone out here can piece some things together.  There are those much more experienced than I who, with a few facts, can assist you and hopefully find more on the Webs.  I personally, as the "thread starter" would be most pleased if you would share any recollections you might have concerning the "ditching."  Again, this would be a choice that you would make.  On this Site, everyone learns from the life experiences of others, and it is from the Vets that we learn.    Best Regards!   Steven
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 11/16/2007 05:42:07 PM
Duane Schultz's new book about the 01AU43 low level Ploesti raid, Into The Fire (Westholme Publishing, 2007) offers many aspects into this historic mission.  As he walks through the planning, training, actual mission, escape and closure, he gives many graphic descriptions of what the crews saw and heard in their own words.  On pages 193-195, he recounts the ordeal of Hadley's Harem, B-24D, 41-24311, as it approached Turkey, but eventually ditched in the Aegen Sea killing three of the crew including Gilbert Hadley, the Pilot.  Russell Page, FE, "perched behind the pilots on the flight deck and bracing himself against the armor plating behind the pilot's seat," gives vivid accounts of what it was like aboard the shot-up and crippled A/C as it crashed.  There was very little escape time and, due to the damage and rushing water, exits were not easily accessible.  Anyone with an interest in the bravery of these crews, the B-24 or the Ploesti raid would find this book well worth the time and money.   Best Regards!  Steven 
<message edited by rzrj3b on 11/20/2007 08:06:50 PM >
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 11/20/2007 08:23:37 PM
In re-reading this thread tonight in light of some recent articles I've read, it has become quite apparent that the "last resort" while in a damaged B-24 was to ditch at sea.  Depending upon the author and the book, it would appear that a "straw vote" in most cases was to "ride it out" or to be at an appropriate altitude to bail out "over land."  In any event, a difficult decision.  My question is this:  Who has the ultimate, final decision, realizing the consequences over water?  Is there an option to bail out or, is it assumed to ride it out?  Again speaking of the Lib.  Just a thought.  Best regards!   Steven 
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 11/21/2007 08:46:48 AM
Had to chime in here as a 3d Animation professional - the "photo" is indeed a fake, a semi-decent 3d model (it looks like it may be from Il-2 or a similar game) retouched into a beach photo. The scale of the water and waves is way off from the size of the plane unless your Liberator has a wingspan of about 15 feet....
 
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RE: B-24 Liberator: Ditching at Sea - 11/21/2007 10:34:44 AM
Robert,   Thanks for the post!   Agreed, the original post of this Thread was indeed not a good choice as several posters had mentioned.  (I had copied it off the Web, sight-unseen, to start the Thread).  I'm not sure what a "3rd animation professional" is but thanks for the post and the interest in the AAF Site!    Best Regards!    Steven
 
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