Chuck-
One other Possibility ?
The 154th WRS (Weather Recon Sq. ) , 15th AF,  also flew P - 38s.
Mike
 
 

Mike,
  A possibility but......MACR #1820 statement account by James D. Gysan (Cpl. 11053310) flying as a TG on 42-29775 (WONGO) and they were 1/2 mile in front of "Restless Bess" He states"I saw some P-38s turn in toward our formation at three o'clock and then head out at a four o'clock angle from our aircraft.  One of these P-38s collided with what I believe to have been aircraft  number 42-5470.  It appeared that the P-38 hit this aircraft at the escape hatch.   Aircraft #42-5470 turned over on its back.  A piece of wing fell off and then some objects fell out that may possibly been three members of crew.  One of the objects appeared to be on fire."-----James D. Gysan
     Wouldn't the WRS planes  be by themselves?
CHUCK

A3/503/173ABN NAM 68-69
"Death From Above"

Chuck:
 As I recommened ealier, request from Maxwell an aircraft accident report's for both a P-38 & B-17 in question for 1 Jan 1944.
 
MACRs rarely do follow ups. There maybe more information on the accident report, other witness statements may be included.
 
 
 
Terry T. 

Chuck-
I checked www.accident-report.com
There is an Accident report on File for William H. Wilson 1944
Mike

Terry,
      Thanks for all your help.  Request has been submitted.  Still have some roads to go down though.
                     CHUCK

A3/503/173ABN NAM 68-69
"Death From Above"

I don't know if I'm providing any new information but I looked at two sources of information to comeup with a possible candidate.
In "Who Fears" by Werrell, a history of the 301st BG:"That day [January 11th] the Fifteenth sent four B-17 Groups escorted by P-38s against targets in the Piraeus Harbor of Greece...The visibility was 5/10s to 10/10 clouds along the route and entered an overcast at 18,000 ft...There was also a collision that downed a 99th Bomb group bomber and a P-38...The AAF lost eight bombers and two fighters on this mission,all but one fighter due to collisions."
 
From "Escort of P-38s:A History of the 1st Fighter Group" by Mullins: "[A]nother escort mission on the 11th [of January];this later to PIraeus,Greece. On this mission the 1st and the 14th escorted four bomber groups and just short of the target part of the bombers turned back [Prob due to the poor visibility]. The 14th turned back to cover the retiring bombers leaving the 1st to go on to the target-all sixteen aircraft. This time the enemy attacked the Group with twenty five to thirty aircraft.We claimed two Bf-109s and one probable and all of ours reurned safely."
 
This leads one to believe it was the 14th FG that suffered the two casualties reported by Werrell, which means it was a 14th FG P-38 that collided with the 99th BG B-17. I have a MACR listing that has no P-38s casualties on this date,except for the 8th AF. The 82nd FG did not fly any missions on this date. The 14th Fighter Group is the only 15th AF fighter group that has not published a group history.

Kak 13152,
 
Dick Drain's 5th Wing History shows 42-29918 in the 97th BG 342nd BS, that had a mid-air collision with 42-3251 97th BG 342nd BS on 11 Jan 44....the aircraft was assigned ot the 99th BG 12 May 43, but was transferred to the 97th BG 14 Nov 43.
 
There is no mention of a P-38 involved in the mid-air collision of two 342nd B-17s.
 
The 99th ,346th BS, did lose 42-5470 on 11 Jan 44, however, there is no mention of a collision with a P-38.
 
42-5470   Restless Bess    346    MIA 11 Jan 44 at Piraeus. Crashed near Kalavarya. Joseph Donahue crew,Lilly,Raftery, Schroeder,Broggs,Sherris, Ritter,Trinoskey,Branz,Douglas. ..Raftery, Sherris, Trinoskey evade. rest KIA. (MACR 1820).
 
Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Jim,
  I have a copy of MACR #1820 on 42-5470 (Restless Bess) downed 1/11/1944 with my father aboard (He was one of three who survived).  Have you read MACR #1820 or do you have some other evidense that there were no  P-38 involvement.  I await your response-until then I will go with what is recorded in MACR #1820 and assume you know of what you speak!
CHUCK                                      
    Also, I believe, you will find that  the two B-17s that you mentioned as having a mid air collision were the two B-17s that did have a collision---- they turned back into the formation and took out 5 B-17s from the 301BG.  Seven B-17s lost, 63 KIA, 14 survived.  See http://home.freeuk.net/birkie/index.htm  and/or  http://32ndbombsquadron.com/32ndacts.html   "DISASTER AT 18,000 FEET" by Co-Pilot Lt.Keith Taylor.

A3/503/173ABN NAM 68-69
"Death From Above"

Jim,
 
I'll have to go with the information in Werrell's book and the MACR to definitively believe that 99th BG B-17F 42-5470 collided with a P-38 on January 11,1944. The inability to identify the P-38 just means that there are errors/omissions in the MACR list,something we all know is true. I could elaborate,based on experience, but even if the aircraft loss is not on the MACR list that does not necesarily mean there was no casualty.
 
Carlos
 
 

Carlos,
    I'm really reaching here.      Do you think that a P-38 was built well enough to hit a B-17 at about the escape hatch and survive yet still do enough damage  to bring down the B-17?  From the MACR #1820--"this plane began vibrating and became unmanageable.  Source heard no explosion or felt no impact.  Plane nosed over on left wing and started down vibrating terribly.  Right wing snapped off.  Nothing was said over interphones and no bail out bell sounded.  Source went out tail escape hatch when he saw wing go by.
     My dad was this source and this was his 50th mission(??Still a Question??) so he was well seasoned.  Statements from airmen on two other accompanying planes say it was P-38.  Dad was the TG.  How would he not mention P-38.
 CHUCK

A3/503/173ABN NAM 68-69
"Death From Above"

From WWII Timeline
 
11 Jan 1944
MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-17's, with P-38 escort, bomb  the harbor at Piraeus, Greece; they destroy 8 attacking fighters; 6 B-17's  are lost in midair collisions in the heavy overcast.
 
 
 
Terry T.

Chuck..Please understand one thing...I do not pass judgement on any report...what I sent you, is from Dick Drain's 5th Wing History....this incident took place before my entry into the 99th BG. I was quoting what is in my copy of the 5th Wing History.

The copy of the MACR is usually more accurate than any other report as it  (usually), is a report from a  witness(s).  I say USUALLY, as with some losses, there was no witness, if it was a lone mission.

No, I do not have a copy of the MACR...I have to rely on those who do.
 
As  to the other two B-17s, they were not from the 99th, they were from the 97th BG.

Respectfully,

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

To All,
There is a 99th BG Group History which I've seen on E-Bay,maybe this has some information.
I don't believe the P-38 survived the collision.
 
Carlos

Terry T,
      Sometime in my search I went down that road also.  Just so much conflicting information.  Check the links on my post to this forumn 8/31/2007 10:28pm. 
   Chuck

A3/503/173ABN NAM 68-69
"Death From Above"

On my database I can find no P-38 loss for that date..
 
Terry T. 

Opps I should rephrase that..no 1st, 14th, or 82FG lost on that day, other than the one 55FG loss
 
42-67100  
P-38H-5-LO  
Harbert, William E., 2nd.Lt.(O-743332). /Missing 
338th Fighter Sqd 55th Fighter Gp 8AF 
440111 SOXO (Germany) MACR #1954

Terry T.

Chuck,
There was some confusion about the date of death of both 1st Lt William Wilson and 2nd Lt William Lovell of 1st FG, 94th FS.
1st FG history says they went missing on 11 Jan 43, while ABMC website says they died on 11 Jan 44.  You'll notice on latter website that both pilots are mentioned on the Tablets of the Missing at the North Africa American Cemetery in Tunisia.

Date of ABMC says when both were pronounced dead officially. Because of legal reasons, for instance family law (one's wife pregnant...?) the date of death would be put one year after a soldier went missing and did not show up anymore. 
I'm open to any info about this matter, but perhaps not in this thread.
Regards,
Leendert
Belgium

14th Fighter Group, summary for 11 Jan 1944
 
Eleven P-38s took off for escort some unreadable BGs to what looks like Firaieot, Greece.
 
  Our  pilot's did not observe the bomb run as the were flying above the bad weather, they only saw the B-17s after they came off the bomb run.
 
  The weather was so bad they called it a washout and all returned to base.
 
 My thought is said B-17 mid-air with another B-17. 
 
  Intersting to note. how a tail gunner from another B-17 could see a P-38 1/2mi from it in bad weather?
 
Terry T.
 

Terry,
"Firaieot", Greece = Piraeus, the port city near Athens.
Regards,
Leendert

PS Have not found relavant FG losses so far either.....!

Terry,
I appreciate your summary info from the 14FG for 1/11/44. However, as so often happens, we have differences in reports. I have the Mission report from the 1FG for that same mission and it states that part of the bombers turned back 15 minutes befor target and the entire 14FG went with them. This left 15 P-38s from the 1FG to continue with the remaining bombers to target where they encountered 20-25 Me109s and Fw190s.
You have a mission summary from the 14BG. I have the Mission Report from the 1FG.
Are these the same?
CHUCK

A3/503/173ABN NAM 68-69
"Death From Above"