CAF: B-24A OL 927

Having just picked up a copy of the most recent edition of Warbirds Digest with a photo display of the "OL 927" restoration, I just had to go back and find my  last photo taken with Diamond Lil.  Although I will miss her, I am sure that when the  newly restored CAF B-24A visits WR and the Yankee Air Force, I shall be there to greet her.  From the photo op, it looks as if the restoration folks did a great job! I am sure that she will be much appreciated throughout the country.  A B-24 is a B-24 and "I luv 'em all!!!"     Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

It's been a pretty schizophrenic aircraft. It will be interesting to see the outcome. It would be great to see a reasonably convincing B-24D flying again.

Ken

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Ken, I've been working on Ol' 927 off and on for the last few months. The plan is to reconfigure the airplane to as near it's original B-24A configuration as possible. This will have to be done in phases due to time, money, and manpower requirements, but Gary Austin has done a great job in moving the process forward. So far, the tail, tunnel, and right waist gun positions are installed along with stripping out of the transport interior and other trappings. Steven, I think you'll like what you see when the old girl gets up there for a visit.

Scott

Scott, Ken,       I agree that Gary has done an admirable job so far.  I also noticed  the individual photo, along with the composite, of the "greenhouse" nose from Chico, CA, and it seems to look very authentic.  Like Ken posted, it would be great to see a reasonable rendition of a "D" (an "E" to FO WR) in the air again.  I've found it interesting, especially over on the B-24 Best Web, the interest in the early variants before the field MOD or factory installed front turret.  There  truly seems to be quite a following of these early variants especially overseas.      Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

I used to be more of a Boeing guy, but for the past few years I've been digging up lots of info on the B-24. I've become more and more interested in the pre-G airplanes, and it would be great to see an intact D in the air. It has been interesting to me how many posts there are on this site pertaining to the Lib versus the B-17 over the recent past  and how much good information we've been able to share. One thing about the B-24, no two airplanes are exactly alike!!
 
Scott

Scott,  Two things...   First, I've attached a link from the B-24 Best Web in which "greg" posts about early B-24's.  He is one of those many who really has an interest in the D's.  I've lost track over time, but had some PM's from him concerning early models.  His Avatar speaks for his interest.  Secondly, about the differences between the Libs themselves, that is absolutely correct.  However, one of the  key points of the FO WR Plant was the use of Henry Ford's manufacturing technique of the automotive machining and assembly process using interchangeable components.  When he transferred this concept to building airplanes, the poliferation of parts, the magnitude of the operation and the "working time frame" became monumental.  Because of this when "expectations were not met," the media jumped on the band wagon and tagged Willow Run with its new name "Willit Run."   However, ole Henry and his team took on the challenge and in 1944, when A/C's were in the highest demand, he hit his goal of "a plane an hour," on average with the time fluctuating between 55 and 63 minutes.  The manufacturing histories of these A/C's is fascinating!  Here is the link:
http://b24bw.proboards33.com/index.cgi?board=B24Aircraft&action=display&thread=1155655469 
I have attached an early photo from FO WR of an A/C being transported out on the final assembly to the adjacent tarmac.  Note,  nose machine guns not in place as yet.    Steven


 

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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Scott,  Just a quick add on to my last post...   The FO WR built B-24J, for example, during the height of its productivity was made up of approximately 465,427 parts of which 311, 237 were rivets (kept the "Rosie's" and "Little People" busy).  Electrical wiring alone approached 5 miles worth of wiring and engineering changes were in the thousands and continued through out  the manufacturing and assembly processes.  The very first, totally complete A/C (.01) to roll (well, sorta, with the help of a tugger) out of assembly door #1  to the hanger on 12JN42 was not exactly air-worthy, but at that time it was quite an accomplishment, based upon the fact that up until that point WR had been primarily providing KD's to Consolidated.  The facts and info could go on and on from the manufacturing perspective, but that'll have to be another thread.  I have attached one of the more common photos of the early B-24E on the Final Assembly Line  (#1) in early 1943.  This photo is not from my collection but is available on many sites, i.e. Google: B-24.        Steven

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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Here's a photo I shot from the C-45 chase plane when Ol' 927 went flying for the first time after the winter reconfiguration.
 
Scott

[image]local://upfiles/8432/CBC10C089BD74A9297B4ABF6A9B3DDFA.jpg[/image]

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Scott,   Great photo and I'll be glad to see her at Thunder Over Michigan in the coming years!   Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven,
Thanks for the compliment on the photo--I've never done air-to-air before and was shocked that some pictures actually turned out OK. Just a little bragging now--Ol'927 was selected as "Judges Choice, Bomber" at Oshkosh.
 
Scott

[image]local://upfiles/8432/5960E28EE4FE4C85959988E08CB129AD.jpg[/image]

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Folks,  This is turning out to be a more interesting thread than I thought, and having received a couple of PM's about "early Libs" based on Scott's photos and Ken's comments, let me briefly fill you in on a bit about early FO Libs (especially since one of the PM's dealt with armament).  The FO WR B-24E was begun as a late model CO B-24D with the three fixed gun nose.  The FO version did not carry the Bendix Remote or Sperry manned ball turret.  The FO's had the single .50 caliber tunnel gun with scanning windows.  It did have the A-6 Consolidated tail turret, and the waist guns were opposite each other, not changing at FO WR until the B-24H had already been in production.  The top turret was the Martin A-3C later replace by the A-3D "High Hat."  It was painted  in Camo.  Again this was the basic FO "E" which may have been also retro at MOD centers.  As was also customary, KD's were sent to CF and DT  while regular production was in progress.  Between the two, WR  produced 791 A/C's, but we really struggled!  In fact, it looked as if WR was approaching its soon to be given media nickname of "Willit Run."
Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven...As a B-17 flight engineer, I have a comment.....to show another difference between  the B-17 and B-24, is the number of rivets....another reason for the B-24s being produced in greater numbers is just that...the B-17 had many more rivets......all one has to do, is look at the spacing of the rivets.....the B-17 has much closer spacing.....it took time to set those rivets.....so it is only logical, that the B-24s could be cranked out faster, and of course the second item is the number of assembly plants.....only three for the B-17 against five for the B-24.
 
Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

  Jealousy will get you nowhere Jim Peters.

G. Combs
Niece
First Lieutenant Clay Byers
Navigator Bombardier Radar
1st September 1944
482nd BG (Pathfinder)
389th BG
466th BG

Georgia...My answer to that last remark is :   The truth always hurts.
 
Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Jim,  Good evening!  Yes the Lib had 5 production facilites to the Boeing's three.  When the Lib plants were stacked against one another, my vote, albeit partial, favors WR.  The slow manufacturing start gave way to streamline production, and you are correct about the number of rivets one verses the other.  There were, however, other manufacturing techniques that improved the mean time to completion of sub assemblies, i.e. jigs, continuous stamping presses, etc.  Bottom line, the A/C that brought you and all the Vets home wasand will be the best!   Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Scott,  Just a thought......     This photo would make a grat avatar for yourself as you are so intimately involved in Ol' 927!!!   Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven,
 
I followed your advice and gave myself an avatar. I'm really just a volunteer helper during the winter--won't have any chance to see the old girl on tour this year, but I hope everyone enjoys the reconfiguration (Phase 1) of Ol' 927.
 
Scott

Scott,  Volunteers are GREAT!!!  Of the three posted photos, this one seems to be the best!  Great Choice!   Did I represent your organization well in the attached quote?   Steven


RE: B-24 Lib versus the British Lancaster - 8/7/2007 8:06:48 PM   
Okay Glenn,  you got me on this one............   Three (3) remaining Libs still "air worthy?"  Let me see, the Collings Foundation B-24J currently sporting the FO WR B-24-H Witchcraft Nose Art (previously: Dragon and His Tail; Schlitz Girl; and the All American - original restoration motif).   Add to this the Confederate (now Commemorative) Air Force's "Ol' 927 (formerly Diamond Lil) and that makes TWO air worthy A/C's.   Now, many years ago I do remember Delectible Doris ( B-24J-FO Tallichet Restoration) with whom I had had memorable encounters, but alas, have not paid a visit to her in recent years.  Do I need to think "GLOBAL" for the 3rd, like maybe the other side of the "pond?"   Please help!  I'm lost!  I hope it is not just a question of changing Nose Art Motif!  Please shed some light 2 or 3??         Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Scott:

Beautiful! You guys are doing a great job on Ol' 927. It looks terrific.

Are you going to try to put bomb bays back into the old girl? That will be quite a job. Anyway, it looks fantastic.

Ken

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Steven,
 
Thanks for the nice write-up. If Kermit is able to get his Lib airworthy again in the next few years it would be an interesting trio. Witchcraft is really fantastic looking from the photos I've seen. My brother has flown on her and was impressed.
 
Ken,
 
The bomb bay reconstruction on Ol' 927 is a pet project of mine--you are right, it will be a daunting task to be sure. We really don't have the proper shoring equipment at Midland to accomplish the entire keel replacement. The "canoe" that makes up the cargo belly replaced the central keel beam and forward and aft bulkheads of the bomber configuration and will have to be removed while the fuselage is stabilized. We also have virtually none of the original keel and bulkhead parts, though these could likely be fabricated with enough time, people, and money. Gary was able to broker a trade that gained us all four bomb bay doors and four bomb racks that had been removed from other aircraft. One of my projects this spring was to mount the racks in the belly to approximate a bomber configuration for those who walk through the airplane. We mounted them farther apart than normal in order to facilitate movement through the airplane, and my mountings are far from the original fixtures. These will be properly installed when the rest of the bay is restored at some future date. Interestingly, Gary pointed out that the aft bomb door tracks are still installed in the fuselage and were simply covered with skin during the mod to cargo bird. If anyone knows of any bomb bay components lying about I would greatly appreciate a PM!
 
 

[image]local://upfiles/8432/25B5CA65B9C745DEB05464577D3ED0FA.jpg[/image]

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Scott:

I'm curious, are the side windows on the cockpit, as seen in your photo, correct for the B-24A? I don't remember that big a window, though my memory about the A is kinda hazy.

Good luck with the bomb bay. Sounds as though you are well on your way.

Ken

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Good eye, Ken--
 
The cockpit enclosure on Ol' 927 is correct for a very late model Liberator, not an "A". In fact, when Gary and his helpers were opening up the cockpit area last fall they found "RY-3 #37" painted on the structure. One of the last modifications done to 927 when Consolidated owned her was to remove the short "A" nose and install an entire RY-3 assembly with the two-piece windscreen and larger single side windows. I believe Gary plans to return the greenhouse to the correct configuration during one of the next phases of reconfiguration. I'm not sure if this will be built from scratch (he has the factory drawings I think) or if the framing can be sourced from another partial airframe. He did install two windows above the sliding side windows that helps to make the configuration more like it would have been originally. As for the longer nose she has now, that will probably remain as-is, unless someone is using a B-24A nose as a toolshed and wants to donate it to the Squadron!
 
Scott

Scott,  Must say, Ken does have a sharp eye!  Curiosity, during this past week, has Ol' 927 been based at home or on a circuit?  Reason: 3 different people (independently) at WR have sworn they saw "an olive drab B-24" (all ID'ed the A/C by a "twin tail" BUT couldn't remember the number of engines.) From what I've found, neither the Witchcraft nor Ol' 927 have been in the area.  I usually use this a a "teaching experience"  to show differences between YAM's B-25 and the aforementioned B-24's.   Also we know there are only 2 flying 24's !   Best Regards,    Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Found the answer to my own post while checking into the YAM Web SITE tonight in doing my Privateer Thread... IT WAS Ol'927!!!  Being en grossed in work (building those HumVee Transmissions) and only surfing a bit, I didn't know!!!  An opportunity missed!!!  Scott, you and the boys are doing a great job!   Steven

[image]local://upfiles/11777/F65069643A444595A58AEA161CDCDB95.jpg[/image]

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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven:

I found this photo in Martin W. Bowman's book "Consolidated B-24 Liberator"

Caption: B-24J 44-44272 "Joe" (formerly Delectable Doris) in its new scheme at Kermit Weeks' 'Fantasy of Flight', at Polk County, Florida in 1997.

Ken

[image]local://upfiles/9698/F9F31CC33F3E4ECFB7B263243DAED710.gif[/image]

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Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Ken,  As you can tell by the time of this posting, I am not at MAPS, but rather at work, so thought I'd jump in and thank you for posting the photo before getting back to the shop floor.  Ir seems that Tallechet's A/C is pictured everywhere:  posters,  clocks ("come on home" pictured below), retro signs and other memorabilia. What is interesting, for those  "who know" our Libs (and have a keen eye) are the little nuances.  Note, for instance, the CO anti-glare paint which, for some reason, appears "notched."  Since this was a "signature" ID of FO WR, one would assume the A/C was from WR.  However, it may be that since the A/C was not originally restored, but rather in remarkable "as is condition," this could be just worn, flaked paint that is missing.  Also the CO anti-glare did extends further beyond the observation dome and actually was striped under the side of the window of the cockpit unlike those from FO WR.   Steven


[image]local://upfiles/11777/53A567BF18124E2CB5FE5C6B3D76B4A8.jpg[/image]

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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Scott,   Were you aware that the "Ol' 927" dropped in at the Yankee Air Museum (YAM) last week  (03AU07)as I had mentioned in a further post?  I was within shouting distance (sort of) but missed visual contact!  Was it a courtesy call or "parts pickup" call?   I didn't see it posted anywhere as a "scheduled visit. "   Steven

[image]local://upfiles/11777/90D17567DB8349E38ED7DD7F1AC61B0B.jpg[/image]

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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven,
 
Yes, I knew they were planning on a stay at YAM--I believe the stay was a "babysitting" stop prior to the next airshow appearance. I think she is at Niagara Falls this weekend. Thanks for posting the photo! On an unrelated subject, is the bomb bay more-or-less intact on the PB4Y-2?
 
Scott

Scott,   I don't have an answer for you yet on the "bomb bay," but should have one soon.   Now, I hope you weren't PLANNING TO "SWOOP IN" and cannabilize the ole "finally-found-a-home"  PB4Y-2!      Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven,
 
No, I wasn't thinking about absconding with the belly of the Privateer, but may want to crawl around in there to get ideas for our old girl sometime in the future. Even though the bomb bay project is far in the future it never hurts to do research!
 
Scott

Scott,   The attached "link" to the Restoration page of the YAM Site may be of direct benefit to you as the PB4Y-2 is a part of the "Air Park" static display.   It also is one of the A/C's going through refurbishing along with others.  You probably would get a quicker answer about the possibility of an "inside look" through this channel.    Steven
http://www.yankeeairmuseum.org/projects/

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven:

The Tallichet/Weeks B-24 was a natural metal finish aircraft. The Collings B-24 was painted silver when it flew as "All American" and "The Dragon." Because of this they painted non glare black on the upper inside halves of their engine nacelles. The anti-glare on the top of the nose was OD and originally (at least on Delectable Doris) was not under the sliding window. Why they carried it back to include the bottom rail of the sliding cockpit window on "Joe", I don't know.

Ken

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Ken,  Thanks for the update!  Sort of clarifies things!  Interestingly, I have quite a few different photos in my office taken over the years of the Collings Foundation B-24J from the installment of the outer wings in Florida in '88/'89, thru its various "nose art" motifs and visit to YAM.  I've also got pictures with Delectable Doris, so I'm glad you brought up the point about the "anti-glare" paint.  I keep telling the guys at work who "know" that the "notched" paint scheme on DD was NOT FO WR!!!  Best Regards,  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

There is a lot of coverage and interest in "OL 927" here but I don't see any photo or mention of its real identity AM 927. Here is a 1946 photo taken at Oakland when it was being flown as a Convair company aircraft.

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Sorry Scott et al...I forgot about your need for small resolution photos. Here is the photo reduced to what I think will work OK.

[image]local://upfiles/1204/B41890F2E028432AA0E9750A5DB4B1BE.jpg[/image]

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Bill,
 
Thanks for that photo! Here is a shot of her with the short nose taken prior to the RY-3 forward fuselage modification.

[image]local://upfiles/8432/6E318859F0A94E04B9C4063845885679.jpg[/image]

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I just found a camouflage photo taken at Consolidated Fort Worth in fall 1943. The old girl got around during her time with Consolidated!
 

[image]local://upfiles/8432/0F71B7EC2ED247C1BA2DBA08BFAFED84.jpg[/image]

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Scott: Here's another early photo you may not have seen. The Continental Can Company flew it for a number of years in a gray and white scheme. Somewhere I have a color slide of this that might be of interest.



[image]local://upfiles/1204/B021FA897A764A3481A70981A4C833B5.jpg[/image]

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Thanks, Bill!
 
We've got both black-and-white and color shots of the Continental Can scheme, but I don't know if our B&W shot had the bulged nose door or the original. Great to see that picture!
 
Scott

How similar was Ole 297 to Churchill's transportation?

Ken

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy