John,  Good morning!  I did not take it as any affront at all, and I thought the selection you posted was very good!   I should not have used the word "alleged," and I certainly do not want to get into anything negative on this Site.  Your point is well taken!  I'll pull myself back into the hangar and do some "self-reflection" on my writing (just like the attached picture). Thanks!  Best Regards!   Steven

[image]local://11777/5B41B2D0C69149049372AB9C633907AE.jpg[/image]

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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

'Tis a beautiful photo of a gallant lady Steven.

Ken

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Gentlemen, This could turn out to be a long post, so hopefully I can answer some of the questions. Also, as I am accustomed to doing, I shall also post this on the Thread: History: Willow Run Liberators, as there are many FO WR folks with whom I come in contact who either do not use and/or have no access to a computer, so I run "hard copies" for them. 
The pic that I posted in the beginning post of the Thread is in fact the last "inside station, number 28," as drawn  on the "flow chart diagram" dated 01AU44.  If you look closely, the exterior hangar door of lines 1&2 (which was actually called the "H" Line as it was the short leg of the "tax turn comprising the west to east "H" bay) is in the open position.  The door immedately behind is closed.  At the time of fueling and oiling from the overhead lines, this door was closed as "fire/explosion" prevention.  A/C's in station #27 were therefore in queue in front of the closed door during fueling.  Once the A/C in station #28 was fueled and checked, it was "tugged" outside where the "final five days" of the A/C's "build life" was completed.  This entailed: (A) Company Fllight (FO Inspection); (B) Army Flight (AAF); (C) Acceptance; and (D) Delivery.  At that point, the A/C was then flown away to its destination by a "ferry crew."  Approximately 30,000 gallons of 100 octane gasoline and 1100 gallons of oil were pumped into A/C's every day before delivery to Flight after Station #28.  These were stored in 6 - 25,000 gallon underground tanks from which it was then pumped to to Station #28, then from a drop through pipes to an "overhead catwalk" (in post #1 photo) and then by hose to the A/C. It took 20 minutes to gas the A/C and 4 othr checks before leaving the bay. The bay itself was 150 feet wide and 75 feet long (give or take) with the doors closed.  When we did our 12MR08 Tour of the plant with YAM members, we measured the area off, and found the exact spot where the interior door would have been.  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

As is my custom to maintain continuity for those wh do not have computers or do not use them living in the area, I maintain FO WR posts on this Thread.  Best Regards!  Steven
 
 
Since having been "reassigned" due to the shrinking salaried workforce at GM WR, formerly FO WR, my new area of assignment brings me into yet another area of the plant filled with history.  My new manufacturing area  covers what was fomerly lines 1 & 2 ("H" bay) and 3 & 4 ("K" bay) from the "tax turn" which turned the A/C's 90 degrees south starting at station 20 & 21 thru the final leg of the mile long line to station #28.  One of the fascinating "overhead" activities that takes place even today from the "heydays" of 1944 is the actual use of one of an original "overhead cranes," one of 2 of 68 cranes still active.  Back then, the 68 travelling cranes covered the manufacturing, sub-assembly and assembly of the Liberators suspended from 69 miles of steel rails along with 1.5 miles of "walk way (catwalk)" for service, entry and egress.  Varying in rated-lift  capacity fom 5-15 tons, they were capable of lifting a total weight of 520 tons.  The majority of them were manned by well trained and highly capable women who lived their work day 36' to 40' above the plant floor.  They could travel across sections of the plant in all directions of the compass.  The attached picture is the typical syle and is slihly smaller than the one used today in my area for loading bundles of steel.  Best Regards!  Steven


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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Just as an aside since we took a slight "tangent" here, but thought I'd post this pic of an incident that occurred at FO WR in December of '43.  Even before the "fly-away" or combat, accidents happen on the ground.  What is interesting in this pic is all the "background activity," i. e. vehicles, continuing airport work and some "refurbishing," I believe, at the "gun butt."  Best Regards!  Steven


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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Thread Followers,  Found your post interesting, and although I am not as knowledgeable about the B-29, I can post a bit here about our "hangar" which was constructed adjacent to and along with the FO WR Bomber Plant.  It runs north and south as one exits the bomber plant hangar doors.  The basic data is as follows:  "Hangar #1 was 1,255' 8" long with a depth of 162' and height of 79' Square footage was 268,570 sq. ft. with eight bays.  The doors were 144' wide x 42' tall (a tad different than the B-29 doors).  A/C's were processed for final delivery from here.  The basic construction was steel.  Hangar #2 was 1203' long with a depth of 161' and eight bay doors of the same size as #1.  Inspection and preparation for initial flight was done here.  I had heard form a former employe that MOD's were also done here, but have found no indications of such in literature.  Today the same hangars and functioning doors are used by companies for their private jets. Jack Rousch, of racing fame, has his two seater-restored P-51D Mustang stored here. It is still a viable hub for the movement of freight.  The attached picture is a nice shot of OD B-24H's queued up.  As an aside, February was the last monthin which OD was used at FO WR.  From here on out, it was to be clean skin."  Although this was a wartime hub, the whole focus of the airport was an "extension, as it were, of the bomber plant itself.     (Took this post from another Thread)   Best Regards!  Steven


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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Recently I made a two-hour presentation and symposium on the History of the FO WR Facility along with presenting artifacts and memorabilia to the Ann Arbor Chapter of the Association of Aviation Engineers (AAE) and their guests.  Many were WW II Vets, most were retired and two had actually worked at the FO WR Plant.  As I was going through the pics (the one in question is attached), it came up that they had heard that Ford had hired Little People in the plant, but this was the first time they had seen a picture or had it confirmed. Henry Ford hired whomever he needed to "get the job done!"  In the complex assembly process of the mechanized assembly line, there were anywhere from 10-12 Little People used.  They functioned as buckers for the Riveters inside the center wing assembly, Inspectors in tight places, assemblers assisting in the attachment of the outer wing assembly to the center wing at the splice joint, and  they would also install stiffener rods in auxiliary fuel cells.  They were a highly specialized group of employees, not just for their size, but for the dangerous work they performed climbing around inside the wing and fuel tanks at times in very hot conditions.  They predominently came from the entertainment world and the fringes of American industry, but at Willow Run they were at the center of one of the largest mechanized plants functioning.  Old Henry had his rules, one of which was that "every employee must ring himself in/out at the time clock.. NO exceptions!"  Because of this, it was not uncommon to see fellow-employees giving these Little People "a lift" at the time-card rack so that they could comply.  They were, without a doubt, a most vital part of the huge metropolis that made up FO WR!  In the attached pic, one gets a sense of their size while taking a break on the Lib's main tires.  Best Regards!  Steven


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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Good evening from a stormy night in Ann Arbor, and thanks for the tip!!!  However, if you would like to view the majority of the pics "free," click onto the first attached link.  There are about 200 pics within this realm of  the "public domain."  Many of them are the same that I have and use.  I'm sure your children would find them historically interesting.  What is interesting about the e-bay CD is that the "cover" is not a picture of the FO WR Assemly line.  Another view of the same is also pictured in the popular B-24 Liberator in Action booklet    (Squadron/signal publications, 1987, by Larry Davis, p.36) in which the photo caption states "B-24J Final Assembly Line at Ford Willow Run."  I believe it is either San Diego (CO) or Ft. Worth (CF).   The second link is less interesting to most, but it is the interior of the GM WR plant as it exists today.  I had hosted a tour for a group from the Henry Ford Museum, Transportation Center and the Yankee Air Museum (YAM) working on a 1:72 scale model of the FO WR Assembly Line as it appeared 01AU44.  Best Regards!   Steven

http://public.fotki.com/Kos/members_photo_galle/wiilow_run_bomber/

http://public.fotki.com/Kos/members_photo_galle/willow-run-plant---/

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

I've added this post from another Thread to maintain continuity with my WR Thread!  Best Regards!  Steven
 
TonyM, Phillip, Toni,   Good evening from Ann Arbor!  Just jumping on for a few minutes tonight and tend to agree with TonyM although my "hard evidence" is rather sketchy, at best.  I believe that this A/C could be B-24E-5-FO, 42-7012 built at FO WR on the "K" Line (within block 42-6976 to 42-7464).  From the pic, it is hard to tell as nothing really stands out, and a lot is blocked, but the large "buzz" number on the port side does appear to be a "012(3)," as TonyM has indicated,  but which is really inconclusive since the numbers, seen on many 8th and 15th AAF A/C's, really don't mean a whole lot. Al Blue, I believe, has referred to them as "pesky numbers." They do appear on FO WR A/C's but inconsistently, and, in fact, are seen more often on "clean skin" "J's" thru "M's" more frequently than on "E's."  I have found nothing in my information that either upholds or refutes this statement, but in reviewing a lot of  FO WR photos, this is what I've observed.  As to the original post in this Thread, I've still not located the original Site/place where I have seen the pic. 

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steve,
 
You're doing such a great job with the history associated with the B-24, but do please stop helping me to be reminded that aviation is still far too often taken for granted as being a "man's" world--
 
 
"Gentlemen, This could turn out to be a long post..."
 
"The majority of them were manned by well trained and highly capable women who lived their work day 36' to 40' above the plant floor."
 
 
 ...pulling the kevlar helmet and flak jacket from out of my duffle bag now and preparing to take cover...along with a medal or two... why, yes, as a matter of fact some of them really do belong to me...the rest were my uncle's...let's see, there are also around six pair of wings in here...some of them are mine...uh, that black beret was mine...

G. Combs
Niece
First Lieutenant Clay Byers
Navigator Bombardier Radar
1st September 1944
482nd BG (Pathfinder)
389th BG
466th BG

...but do please stop helping me to be reminded that aviation is still far too often taken for granted as being a "man's" world!
"Gentlemen, This could turn out to be a long post..." 
"The majority of them were manned by well trained and highly capable women who lived their work day 36' to 40' above the plant floor."
 

 
Georgia,   Point taken!  Human nature is "what-it-is!"  No offense meant.  Guess I am always "too much into the content!"  Not so sure I understand the the questioning of the 3rd quote.  The "plant folklore" at FO WR about the "Rosies," who did just about everything, is quite interesting!  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

During my tour for members of YAM and the Henry Ford Museum Transportation Curator, 12MR08, I attempted to point out some of the few vestiges of the FO WR days that still exist in the contemporary GM WR Transmission Plant today other than the physical structure itself.  Here I am standing in front of a shop floor door in what would have been immediately in front of the Final Assemly, "K" line, just before the "tax turn."  The old heavy wooden door has been coated with several varied colours of paint over the years, but still bears a parts' S/N as seen in the picture.  Also still in existence are "fire detection pull boxes," some of which have had he "Ford Logo" ground off, but I still have one "in tact."  There still remain several of the 68 overhead cranes of which three are still working, one of which was in service the day we were there.  Hopefully as time goes on, what few other small remnants remain will be found.  Best Regards!  Steven

[image]local://11777/74B78B764C584A9AB7D4400C31381BEB.jpg[/image]

[image]local://11777/82BC393A3BF44AE6B856B37EA2B6FAB0.jpg[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

This pic taken on 24SE43 shows a FO WR B-24H  over a hazy Detroit as ithe A/C approaches the Detroit River.  This shot from a nice angle gives a good view of the OD and demarcation line on the underbody in the paint scheme.  Best Regards!  Steven


[image]local://11777/E94329007564468CB908DB80C002C5CF.jpg[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

As usual, I am adding this for continuity for the Thread.
 
Ernie,   A local nickname among FO WR folks for the Lib was Ford's folly which also was the nose art of a B-24H-1-FO, 42-7466, a picture of which I have attached.  It sort of goes along with the nickname of Willow Run given to it by the media while the plant struggled to reach its intended production goals, "Willit Run."  Still love her though!   Best Regards!  Steven


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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Steven,
First of all I do not extol one AAF plane over another because, not having flown in anyone of them I am not qualified to pass judgement on said plaines. I do like to pass on things that I have read about the planes from qualfied people. The following; As a new century dawned, some 55 years after the fifteenth Air Force had finished it's wartime mission, US Air Force Col John M Hudson sifted through memorabila left behind by his late father, a bombadier in the 450th BG, Hudson recalled; "although he spoke very little of combat, he always extolled the virtures of the "ugly" B-24 versus the "pretty B-17.

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

ORIGINAL: Janos

The following; As a new century dawned, some 55 years after the fifteenth Air Force had finished it's wartime mission, US Air Force Col John M Hudson sifted through memorabila left behind by his late father, a bombadier in the 450th BG, Hudson recalled; "although he spoke very little of combat, he always extolled the virtures of the "ugly" B-24 versus the "pretty B-17.

 
John,   Good evening from Ann Arbor!  Thanks for the post, and, yes the controversy will always go on!  Although aesthetically not a "work-of-art," in my mind it was beautiful!  Again, not having been an aviator, I can only speak from an Historian's point of view along with having worked in a facility which "massed produced" the Lib, FO WR.  I would like to attach your quote to my B-24 versus B-17 Thread as another example of a written comment.  I must admit, however, that our own own YAM, B-17G Yankee Lady is a true beauty.  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

From the Iron Man Thread posted earlier today.  Best Regards!  Steven
 
In the summer movie, Iron Man, Robert Downey JR plays Tony Stark, an heir to an immensely successful "state-of-the-art" munitions corporation.  What caught my eye about half way though the movie was a blownup photograph to the rear-left of his corporate office desk (as the viewer would see it) of one of a series of pics taken in December 1942 and January 1943 on th "K" Assembly Line of the B-24E at Willow Run.  The actual picture is from the Henry Ford Museum Collection and also a similar one can be seen on-line in the Library of Congress Collection (link attached).  It is shown several times during the end of the movie where many scenes are filmed in the office.  (As an aside, on the right-rear side is a pic of a B-17G at a Boeing Plant, but I am not sure of the pic).  I have attached a pic of the same "K" line within the same time frame.  Also, the movie was quite enjoyable!  Best Regards!  Steven

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query


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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Don had posted an interesting item, and I have posted my response here as it deals, in part, with the FO WR Libs. Best Regards!  Steven
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: donf

You may be interested in an incident involving a B-24M manufactured by Ford which was assigned to the 867th Bomb Squadron of the 494th Bomb Group. The pilot of this plane reported that its skin seemed thinner than the previous B-24 models he flew (B24 J models manufactured by Consolidated) and that the skin rattled in strong wind. The plane was also lighter than the rest of the planes in the squadron and cruising speed was  higher.

 

Don,  Can't give you too much detail on this, but will tell you what I know.  On the FO WR Libs the aluminum skin thickness (spec) was from .28" to .025" on the "J" variant thru the "M."  This basically meant that from this aspect, there would be some variation depending upon the section(s) of aluminum roll from which the respective part/section of the A/C was stamped (manufactureres allow a variation).  I cannot speak for the CO variants. Also, paint would have an effect.  FO WR discontinued the use of camouflage/OD paint mid February, 1944, on the "H" variants (don't know if this was in the mix about which you posted). Aluminum thickness, paint, number of rivets would undoubtely make a difference as well as "drag" caused by any aberration deflecting air flow, say for example, a sliding bomb bay door, torn/damaged aluminum,etc.  Since his was not mentioned in the incident you reported, one would assume an undamaged A/C.  This may not help, but it's a start.  Also, I'd like to copy this over to my History: Willow Run B-24 Thread.  Thanks!  Best Regards!  Steven


 
 

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum