Glenn,    Good Evening!    Yes I have plans when I retire (boxes of clips, articles, notes, photos, etc.)!  Thanks for the compliment on the pictures of which I have many, but unfortunately I always keep them in a "safe place," but then have to remember where the "safe place" is!!!  I shall continue to post appropriate ones.  Over time, what has fascinated me among many things about the B-24 has been the "Homefront Production Folks," which at FO WR meant: engineers, skilled trades, little people, "Rosies," Assemblers, cooks, housekeeping, medical staffs, etc.  Being a manufacturing/assembly person within the same "hallowed grounds" for GM transmissions makes it even more awesome!  To think that my small office is located at the historical spot of the "tax turn" (Henry Ford's way of avoiding taxation in two counties due to the location of the plant) where the Libs took their final ride down the Assembly Line to the tarmac to wait the "ferry crew" is unbelievable.  So if I wax a bit sentimental about the vets, the riveters, the assemblers, etc., it's because their "spirits" permeate this place.  Each time I find something new in the WR facility, I try to relate it back to those years so long ago!        Steven

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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Back in August 2000 I had just returned from Austria as a guest in the town where my dad was shot down (in a B-24 H-FO) and the crew captured.  It was a memorable event.  Shortly after returning, I was at the airport in Lancaster, PA when the Collings foundation was in.  A fellow who had built wing sections at Willow Run was there and gave about 8 of us a lesson in assembling B-24 center wings sections.  I wish that had been taped.  What a treat.  THe Collings people gave him a red carpet as well.  A memorable summer.

Glenn, Great post!   Yes, the Collings Foundation does, I believe, a great job.  Having flown in the Witchcraft two years ago, as I have mentioned, it was a thrill since we flew low over FO WR, where she had been built so long ago ( the actual Collings B-24J was a CO product but painted in the B-24H-FO motif of the Witchcraft!  I have included a photo of the  FO WR Center Wing Section of the Assembly line where it is about to mate with the nose and fuselage sections further on.  Note the hydraulic lines.   Steven

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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Glenn,         Found another interesting photo!  If you look closely at this photo (magnifying glass might help), Final Assembly Line (FAL) #1 is to the right and FAL #2 is to the left, both of which veer 90 degrees to the right (south) to avoid going into another county, therefore the name "Tax Turn."  My office in the present day GM WR plant is located aout 100 yards before the "Tax Turn" on what was the #1 FINAL ASSEMBLY LINE.  Today, transmission go down a FAL for the military HumVee occupying the same geographic space.  By the way, this photo was takens in the Fall  of '44 making these "J's."  Steven

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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Art,       Since you had mentioned the WR Cafeteria and food while you were at WR, thought you'd appreciate this one.  This is the only one I have of the then small cafeteria, although this is only a section of it.    Steven

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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Art and Others,    After going through my files, I found this tonight.  Although FO WR was not even close to maximum production or manned up accordingly, the plant had begun to use "portable kitchens" throughout the  expanse of the plant.  These "meals-on-wheels" serviced the shop floor.  Of note in this picture: cases of "Faygo Pop," produced and bottled in Detroit (celebrating its 100th anniversary this year);  the creosole soaked floor blocks which are still in some parts of the present day plant; and in the rear right, an executive on his motorized "scooter-bike."  These were used to traverse the plant and had a "side-car" for guests.     Steven

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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Gentlemen and Ladies,     For those of you who "surf," here is a post that I just added to "bailing out," but pertains more directly to FO WR Lib Assembly.  I believe it is pertinent to both.   Steven

Ken and All ,      I have unabashedly used not only the photo attached for my Bio, but also one that I have used before (deployment of life rafts) since, to me, it shows a lot of very clearly delineated  and "different" detail in the assembly process of the FO WR Lib.  If you look closely at the attached photo, it shows the Final Assembly Process (Continuous Process Flow) at Stations 10 thru 12.  What is significant is that at this point the outer wings have not yet been attached.  After Station 14, the four Final Assembly Lines become two and head toward the "tax turn."  In the attached photo the hatch aft of the left seat (pilot) is clearly visible during assembly, and the relative size relationship is apparant.  Ken's comment about access is clearly apparant.  A former Supervisor of mine talked about his father, who had been a B-24 Navigator, I believe,  and as a member of the 14th AAF had to "bail out," during a mission.  Long ago during a discussion, I never questioned it!  However, I am now wondering!  Again, time, circumstances, and combat conditions would definitely determine the course of action.  I offer this photo which you will see again as a good example of "accessibility. "     Steven


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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

I just read through this for the first time and since there is such an interest in Ford-built B-24Ms I thought you would enjoy this photo. It is my favorite of the B-24M and shows B-24M-16-FO 44-50867.

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Hello Steven, just wanted to say hi and thank you for the great factory pics of the Liberators. Fantastic pictures, they look like they were taken yesterday, so clear and detailed. I put a few pics of my B-24 models on "The Modeling Bench" part of the forum. Really look forward to your posts, and can imagine what it must be like trying to stay focused on your job there, when those GM transmissions suddenly start to look like shiny Ford B-24's! Mark

By the way, this photo was takens in the Fall of '44 making these "J's."

Steven:

That is the BEST photo I have ever seen showing the shape of the "High Hat" top turret. Thanks for posting it.

Ken

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Gentlemen,   Thanks for the posts!  Yes, working at the GM WR plant with the FO WR legacy is really exciting! Although it's work, you just "feel" the history and nostalgia. I'm always looking for something artifacts-wise.  In the "oboyle" post, that is a great shot of the "high hat" turret, and I believe the angle of the photo helps to emphasize it.  Also the observation window common on FO WR "M"'s helps for easy recognition.  I've just ordered a book on the WWII graveyards and storage depots for the "war weary" and "over production" A/C's resultant of the end of the war.  I hope to glean a few more insights and/or photos from it.   Steven 

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

Bill,  I have attached the opening post on another specific thread which has to do with FO WR.  There are many unique things about the facility, and I have attached several of the pictures throughout the site.  Steven

"Those of us who have been hunting, in combat or on a firing range know all too well what it can mean if either a firearm jams, missfires or who knows what else could happen.  At the FO WR Plant, the "gun butt" for  sighting-in and testing all 50 cals. for each A/C was rather unique.  Each A/C upon passing thru the Final Assembly hanger doors would traverse about 1/4 to 1/2  mile of tarmac to a large, yet to be developed, section west of the current day WR Airport where a large, sand-bagged enclosed dirt mound (butt) had been constructed.  A 360 degree rotating turn-table in front of the butt with a "lock down" restraint system would be used to stabilize the A/C  before firing a burst from each platform position.  Once accepted, it would move on to "Compass Rose" and then to its "shakedown" flight (which included toggling "dummy bombs" over Lake Erie) before returning to WR.  At that point, all things being equal, the A/C was turned over to Ferry Command  for deployment to an assigned base.  Early on, these A/C's might have been routed toward a field Mod Center, if specific modifications were required due to their destinations.  As a side note, due to WR's acquired expertise in the area of armament/firearms, the facility was awarded government contracts during the Vietnam Conflict for both a 20mm cannon and the backup for the M-16 ( designated as the M-16A).   Another thread for another site! "    Steven


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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

For those of you not surfing around, here is a new thread which I have just posted seperately concern another facet of FO WR.   Steven
 
One of the unique pieces of calibration equipment at the FO WR Plant was affectionately called "Compass Rose" here briefly described by Warren Kidder from his book:  Willow Run:  Colossus of American Industry (Library of Congress Catalogue Number: 95-94664).  "A "Compass Rose," used for swinging and calibrating the compass of each bomber was constructed at ground level of non-metallic material.  The only one of its kind in the country, it was 52'2" in diameter, weighed 85 tons and was powered by a 30 hp motor."  It was located due east of the main airport terminal and southeast of the exit of the WR FO hanger doors.  Further on he writes "At a Finishing Station they were camouflaged and took on gasoline and oil.  Their compasses were then calibrated on the "Compass Rose," and every 5th plane had its guns checked at the Gun Butt."  This reference  was from early 1943, and as the production increased and processes improved, the machine guns were inceased to 100%.  (Confer my thread: FO WR 50 Cal Testing Range.)  I have attached a photo of a 09JN44 Lib strapped to the "Compass Rose" for stability.  What also can be seen in this photo are the following:  The newly built WR Airport Terminal;  At the right almost directly behind the starbord tail, you can see the two hanger doors of the Final Assembly.  Just inside these doors are the final fueling stations;  Further to the right are the "exit" doors for A/C requiring major repair.  These are "pushed" out onto the tarmac so they do not impede those A/C's which have made the "tax turn" headed down to the hanger doors.  I have also attached this thread to my: History: Willow Run Liberators thread.  Steven


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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

The compass rose and gun butt photos are fascinating.

Were the guns bore sighted before the firing test? Since the barrels were often removed for the overseas flight to deployment, I assume they were realigned and tested after they arrived at the depot or base?

With that in mind, here are some surprising charts showing the bullet patterns from the various gun positions on the B-24.

Credit: "Gunner, An Illustrated History of World War II Aircraft Turrets and Gun Positions" by Donald Nijboer

Top of chart:


[image]local://upfiles/9698/7D04EAB8FDF24A1B8C54D9367768C6C9.gif[/image]

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Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Scatter gun approach?

Bottom of chart:

Credit: "Gunner, An Illustrated History of World War II Aircraft Turrets and Gun Positions" by Donald Nijboer

[image]local://upfiles/9698/ED394885C25B4BB3AC52F13A1AAB283F.gif[/image]

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Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Ken,  Yes, you are correct, they had been sighted.  As to procedure after the "fly away" to Mod Depots, bases, etc., I am not up on that.  I enjoyed the "gun charts." Attached is another photo of the same Lib entering  the "Compass Rose" prior to strap down for calibration.    Steven

[image]local://upfiles/11777/E106DE61C98848ABB20FE84A356C3A86.jpg[/image]

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Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

quote:

As to making design changes to major parts of the B-24, I am sure that any changes would have had to be proved to be suitable for Consoldiated to agree, and then the fact that all five assembly plants would have been required to change as well....I suspect that it was too big a problem to the Consolidated engineers.

Jim,    Again, thank you!  I've taken some time this evening to reread some parts of Bejamin Kidder's book on the construction of FO WR and the automotive-assembly-line-concept transposed to the aircraft industry.  I focused on the almost astronomical # of engineering changes.  Since these had to go through "an approval process" with the Consolidated Engineers, and with the 5 manufacturing facilities, your opinion makes sense.  (Let me tell you what it is like even today.   An engineering change, i.e., small component change <nothing major> on, let's say, the military H-1: HumVee, for which I am responsible for its final transmission assembly at GM WR, MAY take weeks, if not longer!)  I would be interested in hearing from Ken Alexander, Al Blue or any Site manufacturing folks on this.  The most numerous changes at FO WR were in the areas of: armor plating, nose armament, tail armament, instrumentation and structural modifications to support these afore-mentioned changes.  All in all, it took time and processing, although at the "manufacturing floor levels," things moved rather quickly.    Steven

Over on the B-24 vs. B-17 Thread, there have been several posts on pages 2 and 3 concerning the expediency of "engineering changes" at FO WR.  I have  posted one example here, but there was quite a bit of discussion generated by "fuel gauges" and how "lousey" the design was as compared to Boeing.   Just thought I'd post this in the event that someone with specific interest in FO WR would want to jump over to that site.    Steven 

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

I have to speak again. I was not a technical guy, and I relied on my excellent flight engineer to keep the fuel flowing and the engines running!
That said, let me address the changes at Willow Run. I was born and raised in Detroit, and Henry Ford was considered a genius.
He was, as all detroit knew, an anti-semite, and a racist. Never the less, when the war started he offered to do whatever the govt . asked. The way we heard it, he offered to build 24s at a much faster rate than Consolidated could. After several months, he was ridiculed for not meeting the goals he had said he could. His answer was, leave the design alone for more than a few days, ad we'll buld your planes. To a great extent, this was done, and WR did build them fast!! But this partly explains why they were built not as well as they could have been.
Nevertheless, I flew them, and loved them.
Hope this makes some sense to all of you.
RHD
PS this may not be scientific, but it's what we Detroiters believed

His answer was, leave the design alone for more than a few days, ad we'll buld your planes. To a great extent, this was done, and WR did build them fast!! But this partly explains why they were built not as well as they could have been.
Nevertheless, I flew them, and loved them.
Hope this makes some sense to all of you.
RHD
PS this may not be scientific, but it's what we Detroiters believed

 
Robert,        Thanks for the post!   (I have enjoyed your posts before relative to the FO WR Plant.)  Being a "Metro-Detroiter" myself and still working within the industry, I really appreciate your comments.  I do not know if you have read the numerous posts on the B-24 vs. B-17 thread concerning WR, but it's been interesting. Also, although there has been little interest in the thread on Willow Run: Compass Rose, I found it interesting because of the engineering behind it, and it was "one of a kind."  The B-24 was a great A/C, and despite the shortcomings, real or perceived with the facility or the A/C, it brought a lot of the boys home.  I believe that  FO WR did the best it could with the restraints that were there.  Thanks again, Robert, for your appreciated post.    Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum