armorer gunner training

My grandfather was an armorer gunner. He was drafted in April 1943 and he and his crew picked up their B24 in KS in April 1944. I know he went to Flexible Gunnery School in FL. I also believe he possibly trained in UT and CO. Would anyone know if he might have gotten his armorer training in one of those states and if so what base would be possible. Also, would he likely have done his combat crew training in the other state? What are the possibilities? Like everyone else, I could use a little help and any would be appreciated. Can't ask him as he passed 20 years ago and I'm doing some research for the family. 
 
Chuck Tygart
Grandson of SSgt Leonard D Tygart
15AF/55BW/464BG/777BS
POW Stalag Luft IV/Forced March

Chuck -
The 464th BG Activated 8/1/43 Wendover Field , Utah
Gowen Field , Idaho 8/22/43
Pocatello Field , Idaho 10/10/43 - 2/9/44
Pantanella Field , Italy 3/30/44 
Gioia , Italy 4/20/44
Pantanella Field 6/44 - 6/45
First Combat Mission 4/30/44
Excellent Book on Luft IV and Forced March of POWs:
The Last Escape by John Nichol
Mike

Mike,
 
Thank you for the quick reply. Love the name ShooShooBaby by the way. I should have added more information methinks.
 
From everything I have, I do not believe Grandpa's crew (Capt John D Kibler-Pilot) was an original crew of the 464th. I believe they were probably the first replacement or even supplemental crew along with 2Lt Thomas A Mills(778). They were in Topeka KS in early April 1944 where they received their plane. I have a document for BE 4-1 PROV GP and a date of 4/5/44 with this document that indicates their instructions for processing to go overseas. There are a total of 52 crews listed but only the Kibler and Mills crews went to the 464th as far as I can determine. I know Mills flew his first mission on 5/22/44 based on his MACR. The crews are numbered as 147-1 through 147-52. Kibler was 147-43 and Mills was 147-44. We have a crew photo of them with that # stenciled on the bottom of the photograph. It is an interesting document but does not tell me where they did their crew training prior. Hopefully, I can get it scanned in soon as it may be helpful to others. I have a source that should be able to tell me exactly where they did their crew training but I will likely have to take a WAG on his armorer training. Any help is appreciated.
 
Also, I am reading The Last Escape right now. I picked it up based on your recommendations on other threads. Excellent book. Thank you.
 
Chuck                    

Chuck,  AAF trained armorers at Lowry Field, Colorado
Probably attended Flexible Gunnery School at Tyndall Field, Florida.
Combat Transitional Training  probably at Wendover Field, Utah ......... if your info is accurate
 
Flexible gunnery training would consist of basic weapons maintainence, operation, aiming, and shooting.  Armorer training went in-depth on maintainence and repair of the guns, plus bombs, bomb racks, and all associated gear.
Combat transitional training would consist of bringing trained men from all over ( pilots, navigators, gunners, etc ) and forming them into crews, then practicing working together as a team in flight before being assigned to a combat unit.

Shaef1944,
 
You are the man. With that information, it will be much easier for me to figure his training out.
 
Thank you very much.
 
Chuck

Chuck, depending on how much info you want, you can click on the link below ....  it goes to the AFHRA Historical Studies of the AAF in WWII.  Page 1 Study 31 details training in Flexible Gunnery
Page 2, Study 60 details Armorer training, and  Page 2, Study 61 details Combat Crew Training
 
http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afhra/numbered_studies/studies1.asp

Thanks Shaef.
I gave the link a glance earlier today and will probably go back when I have more time.
Chuck.

Probably attended Flexible Gunnery School at Tyndall Field, Florida.

It would be even money that he trained at Buckingham AAF, FL.
 
Topper, if you have any idea of location, Tyndall is just outside Panama City and Buckingham was just outside Fort Myers.

Thanks Bernie.  My brain stopped at Central Instructors Gunnery School at Buckingham, and didnt type it as a place operational gunners trained also.

Okay, here is what I have got:
A)Inducted 4/8/43 Sigourney, IA from docs
B)Activated 4/15/43 Camp Dodge, IA from docs
C)Aircraft Armorer Training - Lowery Field, Colorado (what city?) 12 weeks, graduated 9/7/43 from docs
D)Flexible Gunnery School -Tyndall Field, (near Panama City), FL, 6 weeks, class 43-46, no date from docs
E)Assigned to crew at Salt Lake City (what Field?) from crew member verbal
F)Combat Crew Training, Boise ID (what Field?) from crew member verbal
G)Assigned to B24/42-95371 at Topeka, KS around 4/5/44 from doc
H)Pilot in hospital, crew hiding out in Kansas City so they did not get broken up, unknown duration from crew member verbal
I)Destination Italy, DOD 5/9/44, DOA 5/16/44 Assigned 464BG/777BS from docs
J)Credited 22 missions, unknown # of sorties as some missions counted as 2 from docs
K)Known mission: 6/6/44 target Oil Refinery Ploesti, Romania from docs
L)Known mission: 6/28/44 target Prahova Oil Refinery, Bucharest, Romania from docs
M)Known mission: 7/8/44 target Florisdorf Marshalling Yards, Vienna, Austria; Crew shot down, 2 KIA, 8 POW, MACR 6819 from docs
N)Held @ Vienna, Austria 7/9/44 to 7/14/44 from docs
O)Held @ Dulag Luft, Frankfurt, Germany 7/17/44 to 7/29/44 from docs
P)Held @ Stalag Luft IV Lager C, Bks 2, Room 9, Gross Tychow, Pomerania 8/9/44 to 1/29/45 from docs
Q)Forced march 1/29/45 to 5/2/45 Liberated by British from docs
R)Destination USA 6/12/45 to 6/20/45 from docs
S)R&R leave Jul/Aug 45 from docs
T)Date of Seperation 10/13/45 from docs
 
Thanks for the help. I know all this is not necessarily appropriate here but I had to type the entire outline anyway and I thought others might like to see it. I have more than what I've listed of course. If there are any training holes that can be filled in, let me know.
 
Chuck Tygart
 
 

Chuck ... Lowry Field was in Denver / Aurora ( extended into both cities )  Closed in the mid 1990's during the base closures.
 
Salt Lake City Army Air Base was located on one side of the Salt Lake City Airport.  Its been swallowed up in the expansion to Salt Lake City International.
There is some possibility that this reference may have meant Wendover Field, 100 miles west of Salt Lake.  This was a major gunnery and bombing range, and Salt Lake was the nearest thing for miles and miles, and for a time Wendover was considered a satellite of SLC Army Air Base. 
 
Boise Idaho would be  Gowen Field

I knew someone would have a few answers. Thanks Shaef1944.
Chuck

I took my Flexible Gunnery training in Laredo,Texas and Armament schooling at Buckly Field, Colorado just north of Lawry Field in Denver.  Laredo had just opened for business so everythng was almost ready but not quite. It was quite an experience especially the air-to-air, painted bullet tip shooting for score from the open rear seat in those AT-6's.   "shoot at the tow target...not the airplane" said my pilot!  gu   310/381

Hi
 
For your information, the 2Lt Thomas A. Mills'crew, was shot down the 6/6/1944 over Ploesti, aboard "Reluctant Dragon" B-24 "G" of the  778th.
 
2 weeks before, the Sgt Deneal (NMI) Hoffman, original gunner of Mills'crew, was transfered as nose turret gunner on the deputy ship of the 778th squad. (capt. Robert W. Hornbaker plane - Strictly from Hunger -) to the first mission of the 464th BG over France (Givors M/Y in the Rhône valley).
 
Sgt Hoffman, was killed when the Captain Hornbaker'ship was shot down by E/A and Flak and crashed on May 25'1944 at Cannes, French Riviera. 
 
Philippe

I'm gonna reply to last 2 posts in this one:
 
gu310 - Neat story. I think us young guys really enjoy hearing little tidbits like that. Thanks for sharing. Anyone else want to add anything like that...bring it on!
 
cepe - I did not know that about Sgt Hoffman. I knew from Mills MACR that he had a slightly different crew when they got shot down. Hornbaker and Mills MACR's are both interesting reading. I just didn't put 2 n 2 together yet. Thank you for the info.
 
Thanks fellas, Chuck

Hello,
I work at the 325th CES/CEV (civil engineering/environmental) at Tyndall AFB.  I am the project manager for the military munitions response program for Tyndall.  What this means is that I am in charge of cleaning up all the bullets shot during WWII training at the various gunnery ranges.  We are in initial stages of this program, Phase I was completed in 2007 (history review), and Phase II began last week (sampling to determine hazard).  I am new to Tyndall (1 year) so I am still learning about the ranges. 

If anyone can provide me with anymore insight, other than the official records, it would be great.  I really like the info from Maxwell.  It actually provided some data not found at Tyndall Historical Office. 

Also, if interested, we go out to the ranges and find as many 50 and 30 Cal rounds as we want.  I've got a great collection.  Also, lbs and lbs of shot gun shot and broken clay pigeons.  Very cool.   The bunkers are still there, although taken over by the jungle, along with most of the tracks.