Missing Air Crew Reports, why does this not come up? It was the last Mission of the 42 Squadron the 11 BG H on February 1, 1943.
 
When I do a search with all the information NOTHING comes up. See the photo attachment. I have more, but it would not fit the photo size limits.
 
I really had to Crop it to get into size to allow downloading. But I have all the necessary Information and the search for Mission Crews show nothing.
 
Three of the LAST Four 42 Sq. 11 BGH B-17s went down on Feb. 1, 1943 and nothing is listed even in the listing of missing crews if you go page by page. 

The last one crash landed and that was pretty much the end of the 42 Squadron

[image]local://14753/58AE03A952794F7B8B8060EE42048045.jpg[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

Son of T/Sgt. Ray A. Heilman, JR.
11 TH Field Artillery 1937-1940
Schofield Barracks
7 TH AAC 11 BGH 42 Sq.1940-45
Hickam Survivor 12/7/1941
AAC Armorer (P) 911
P.U.Citation1942

If AAF people saw the airplane make a "water landing", and an airplane "disintegrate in midair", and also seen two airplanes "shot out of the sky", that would mean that the airplanes are not "missing", therefore they would not generate a Missing Air Crew Report.  The airplanes were shot down and the shoot downs were witnessed, the airplanes are not missing.  The AAF knows what happened to them.  If nobody observed the events and the airplanes failed to return to base, they would then be missing.  That is my guess of why there are no Missing Air Crew Reports for these planes. 

Pete

Yep, all four airplanes were seen to go down.  I agree, they are not missing. Makes sense to me. 
 
Just because an airplane is shot down does not mean that it automatically gets a MACR. 
 
TonyM. 

If the plane were seen to go down, and the crews were not rescued & were missing, a MACR would be made up..thats why there called MISSING "AIR CREW" REPORTS, not missing airplane reports
 
 However early losses did not always generate a MACR..there are a few early ones, but it was about mid 1943 before it became a wide spread useage of them..many early losses were reviewed and new MACRs were issued for them, usually with higher numbers.
 
Samples below:
41-13073 B-25C-NA  310BG 12 430208 Tunisia MACR #14584
41-13069 B-25C-NA  310BG 12 430223 Nor Africa MACR #14582

 
Terry TT.

Point taken Terry, but if an airplane is blown to smithereens or plunges into the sea at a steep angle in front of reliable witnesses, it would be safe to assume that they were KIA and not really missing.  But I guess I see where you are coming from. 
 
Anyways, not all missing airplanes/crews got an MACR.  The famous B-24D Lady Be Good (41-24301) has no MACR that I can find. 
 
 
TonyM.

Tony
Lets say the person or persons in question could be said there were all dead aka. Plane was  blown up and crew members knocked free of the plane, where the remains were found & buried kia. Now the ones the were not accounted for, & no remains found, would they not be missing??
 
Terry T.
 
 
 
 

Tony:
41-24301 MACR #15566  very short  3 -pages can be found on Footnote.com
 
 
Terry T.

These planes did go down with fathers, sons, husbands and brothers as crew members. Yes one was seen going down and it still has its crew members listed as MIA. 

Three of the last four planes went down out of a Unit that was the VERY FIRST TO FIGHT as Air Corp at Midway and all the Solomon Islands. It received a Medal from another Branch of the USA Armed Services. It was the 42 Squadron of the 11 BGH.  Do you know how many of the 42 Sq. show up for a Reunion of this orginal group? None.

MACRs were not given yet. These men enlisted in the late 1930s. Enlisted, they were there of a love of their country, not drafted. 

This comes from the son of one of these crews. It is the love of a son who never knew his father. He told me that he tried to picture his father from what his grandmother and mother told him of his father. . 

My Grandmother (Dad's Mom) saved all of his letters, including the envelopes and gave them to me before she passed away 40 years ago. I have the letters and his medals. His name appears at the Manila American Cemetery and Memorial as a MIA.

[image]local://14753/93EC5D4CD5D84EE8ADBA2853B45B0FA6.jpg[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

Son of T/Sgt. Ray A. Heilman, JR.
11 TH Field Artillery 1937-1940
Schofield Barracks
7 TH AAC 11 BGH 42 Sq.1940-45
Hickam Survivor 12/7/1941
AAC Armorer (P) 911
P.U.Citation1942

I just found one for a B-17 41-9151 MACR #15093...there out there..one must look & look..patience is the key...yea research what a blast!!!!!!!
 
 
Break time for MACR hunting..
Terry

ORIGINAL: Terry T.

If the plane were seen to go down, and the crews were not rescued & were missing, a MACR would be made up..thats why there called MISSING "AIR CREW" REPORTS, not missing airplane reports

However early losses did not always generate a MACR..there are a few early ones, but it was about mid 1943 before it became a wide spread useage of them..many early losses were reviewed and new MACRs were issued for them, usually with higher numbers.

Samples below:
41-13073 B-25C-NA  310BG 12 430208 Tunisia MACR #14584
41-13069 B-25C-NA  310BG 12 430223 Nor Africa MACR #14582


Terry TT.

 
 
Okay, then what are the rules for the MACR?  What circumstances would cause one to be generated?  So every ac shot down, whether witnessed or not would generate a MACR?  I did qualify my response as a guess. 
 
What are the rules concerning these documents?  Maybe someone who was there can shed some light. 
 
Pete

Terry..To clarify this a little further....MACRs have to be generated....most by observing crewmen in accompanying aircraft..but not always...in the Pacific an aircraft vanishes...into a mountain; into a jungle; into the ocean. In the heat of war, with some of those troops barely excaping the Japanese advance, records were probably destroyed, if they even existed,prior to the narrow escapeby those same troops.
 
Some of the early aircrews in the Pacific, were without pay, and were shuffled from one theater to another without any permanent assignment.
 
As you said, after the war, relatives complained about the missing airmen, and a section was set up to remedy the situation....Also remember that most, if not all personnel, manning that section, were awaiting discharge...some were very meticulous, and apparently others were not....The higher numbers 16000 MACRs are a result of that effort....some have undoubtably slipped through the cracks.
 
I have heard figures,that there are still 80,000 MIA from all US wars : 60,000 alone from WW II.
 
Respectfully,
 
Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

ORIGINAL: Terry T.

I just found one for a B-17 41-9151 MACR #15093...there out there..one must look & look..patience is the key...yea research what a blast!!!!!!!


Break time for MACR hunting..
Terry

 
Thanks for the help there Terry.  Yep, keep looking and the truth can be found and patience is the rule.  I, too, don't know the rules about the MACR situation--I was commenting on what had already been posted.  Live and learn. 
 
As for the personal attacks against me by a certain new member--Many of the long-time members on the aaf forum know I have put in some long hours on the microfilm machine trying to help vets families solve their mysteries and also trying to help fellow enthusiasts.  And my published works have helped many vets families as well.  Anyone who has seen me help people over the years on this forum know that no disrespect was intended in my comments concerning airplanes being shot down during WWII.  My good work speaks for itself.  Personal attacks should have no place on this forum. 
 
TonyM.

Dear Tony,
 
I edited my letter. I did take it personal and I apologize. My father was in that Squadron and he told me, as I said, he would not go to reunions because they were all gone. He lost close dear friends when he was at Hickam on 12/7/1941, Midway and the Solomons. He was there at  the worse of it.
 
When I found these three members of families from the 42 Squadron it was a miracle. I have not had any leads then this new posting showed up.
 
With it we now have four families linked to the 42 Squadron. It is good news and sad that this is all we have been able to put together in all these years.  
 
So I was in the wrong and I am sincerely  apologizing once more.  

Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

Son of T/Sgt. Ray A. Heilman, JR.
11 TH Field Artillery 1937-1940
Schofield Barracks
7 TH AAC 11 BGH 42 Sq.1940-45
Hickam Survivor 12/7/1941
AAC Armorer (P) 911
P.U.Citation1942

You already know Tony is a better man than me. He privately accepted my apology.
 
I did not want such kindness and patience with an old fart like me be hidden from the world. I put my foot in my mouth and he helped me to remove.  
 
Again thank you Tony and I will try to keep quiet and learn from better man than me.  
 
To my friend who wrote me to straighten me out, thank you. Only a true friend would risk such a challenge. Thank you both. 
 

Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

Son of T/Sgt. Ray A. Heilman, JR.
11 TH Field Artillery 1937-1940
Schofield Barracks
7 TH AAC 11 BGH 42 Sq.1940-45
Hickam Survivor 12/7/1941
AAC Armorer (P) 911
P.U.Citation1942

Actually, I have a MACR for Major Hensley's plane lost Feb. 1, 1943.  It does not have much information, but contains the following in correspondence dated 19 Feb. 1944.
 

1.  On 1 February 1943, four B-17 bombers took off from an advanced base in the Soloman Islands to bomb an enemy airfield on Munda.  Captains Hall, Hensley and Houx, 42nd Bomb Sq (H) were pilots of three of the aircraft.  The pilot of the foruth aircraft is unknown, but is is known that he and his crew were attached to [something's missing]
Hensley and Houx did not return to the base and it was unofficially reported that they were shot down by an number of intercepting enemy aircraft while returning to the advanced base. 
 
2. [Crew rosters listing Capt Earl Hall, Capt. Halold P Hensley, Capt. Frank L. Hall's crews.]
 
3.  Upon reorganization of this squadron in May 1943, it was found that flight records and individual flight forms on officers and enlisted men had been lost or destroyed in the movement from APO708 and, hence, pertinent information is not available on inquires such as outlined in the basic communication.

The MACR number is 16269.  It was not prepared until after the war and includes documents dated as late as June 1948.
 
It is my understanding that MACR's were not prepared until some time in 1942.  As the 42nd BS was already at Espiritu, they probably did not adopt the procedure at that time. 
 
If you can find MACR's for Capt. Hall's and Capt. Houx's planes, I suspect you will find exactly the same backup.  Please note that the official date of death for all of the crew members was January 11, 1946. 
 
Michael

The 4th B-17 , Serial # Unknown , was Piloted by Lt. Thomas.
Crash Landed on Guadalcanal .
Mike
 

Major Earl Hall's brother Hal has just published a wonderful report on his brothers last flight and the other planes on February 1, 1943. I believe it became available in March of 2008. He actually was a Major Hall, but was unable to pick up his new rank before his plane was shot down.
 
If you go to this site and download the 14 MB PDF at the bottom of this link he has an excellently researched report on the flight and his brother.
 
He is working on another research project of the Missions of the 42 Squadron. If you download it and read it there is so much to be learned.
 
James Stephens one of the Gunners has a brother Paul Stephens who has also written a wonderful report of his brother who was on Major Halls B-17. This was the last of the 42 Squadrons B-17s and all were lost with their crews, a fourth plane from another Squadron crash landed. 

Paul Alder was also on the same plane as a Gunner, his son Paul Earl Alder was named after Major Earl Hall. Paul Alder had been shot down only 2 hours before when they figure his son was born in Hawaii.
 
One of the two was a Gunner/Radioman I apologize to both families for the life of me I can not remember which at this moment. 

http://txspace.tamu.edu/handle/1969.1/6421


[image]local://14753/25CA04F3EB4B459D9C5CD42BBDD962F7.jpg[/image]

Attached Image(s)

Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

Son of T/Sgt. Ray A. Heilman, JR.
11 TH Field Artillery 1937-1940
Schofield Barracks
7 TH AAC 11 BGH 42 Sq.1940-45
Hickam Survivor 12/7/1941
AAC Armorer (P) 911
P.U.Citation1942

Dutch,
To reinforce (not really needed) Terrys reply, I am very familiar with only three MACRS, all for the same mission. The first for the Ist Lt of the FS shooting up out of dense cloud cover over the adriatic and then diving back down. His wingman moments later doing the same. A member of that flight dove down to see why his radio reply was not answered. He saw his flight leader crash into the adriatic. To make this reply short the wingman was never sighted after he dove back down into the clouds. The third MACR was for a pilot of the same group having been brought down by flack over Klagenfurt, Austria on the return from the mission. This MACR was generated by the Major. In this he erred. It was like saying, plane enroute to Washington DC, shot down over NY, plane and remains found in Boston. This later pont corrected 10 yrs later, is just to show, not all MACRS are the Gospel.

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

Yes, MACR's were issued for all three of the 42nd aircraft lost on 2.1.43, #15093, #16482, and #16269, respectively.

Jessee