At what point in their WWII training/service did aerial gunners receive their sergeant stripes? Was that rank saved only for those who actually go into combat? What rank would an instructor in gunnery likely have?

I ask these questions because I'm researching one of my three uncles who served in the Army Air Corps/AAF, in this case the one who was trained as a gunner, ultimately on B-29s, but did not serve overseas. He tragically died in Nov. 1945 in a B-25 cross-country training flight accident (where he was along for a final joy ride before his discharge), at the time of which he was listed as only a Corporal.

Here is what I know about Chester Anderson:

- Enlisted February 1, 1944. He was 33 at the time, married and with a young daughter.

- After "basic" or "preflight" (whatever it was called then), he was in flexible gunnery school (Class 44-22 at I believe Harlingen AAF) in May/June 1944. (I have a letter from him, written in early May, to friends or relatives, that does not say where he was, but does talk about having recently been to Matamoros, Mexico, which I know is just across the border from Brownsville, TX, which would suggest Harlingen for his training. He also suggests in the letter that he could be overseas by the end of the summer. I'm guessing that Class 44-22 would have graduated in June sometime. At the time of the letter he had finished his classroom phase and had "just moved out to the range," shooting skeet and .30 and .50 cal. machine guns.) This picture is from this period:
http://helios.augustana.edu/~kla/pics/chester1.jpg

- He obviously didn't get overseas, because I have another time point that places him at Smoky Hill AAF at around Christmas time in 1944.

- My final time point is that he was stationed at Sioux City AAF in November 1945 when he was killed.

Both Smoky Hill and Sioux City match with him being trained (or instructing?) in B-29 gunnery, which also matches what my dad told me once.

What I don't know is where he was mid to late 1944. (The information I have for just before Christmas 1944 is a 78rpm record, a message to Chester's young daugher from her dad, that mentions that he had just flown in from Wendover, implying that he was new to Smoky Hills. I'm wondering if he wasn't earlier training for a B-24 crew, but was then transfered to B-29 duty.) And I also don't understand why he would be just a Corporal if aerial gunners were Sergeants in everything I read. But being as old as he was at this late stage in the war, I'm not surprised he wasn't sent overseas and wonder if he wasn't in fact assigned as an instructor.

Insights anyone?

Kevin Anderson

When I finished gunnery training, I was promoted to Cpl. Our crew flew a new B-17 to Italy in November -December 1944. I flew my first 5 missions as a Cpl, as did all the other enlisted crew members,...we were told that if we became a POW, we were to consider ourselves as Sergeants..(Three Stripe) as we would get better treatment from the Germans, if we were NCO's. After the first five missions we were promoted to Sergeant, and after the next 5 missions we were promoted to S/Sgt, which was the rank for all the gunners except for the Radio Operator and the Flight Engineer. After the next 5 missions (I was a FE), both the RO and myself were promoted to T/Sgt.
The reason, we two were promoted to T/Sgt, was that we both had 6 months courses, he in Radio, and myself in Aircraft and Power Plants. The other gunners had only the 6 weeks gunnery training, except that one gunner for each crew had an additional 6 weeks training as an Armorer. He also, was given the duty of togglier.

Note: all the enlisted men had gunnery training, as did the bombardier and navigator; the exception was, they had their own class in gunnery training, to keep them together as officers.

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Jim,

I was waiting to see if anyone else would chime in before I replied, but I guess not.

So, if I understand you correctly for how it was in your experience, aerial gunners only received their sergeant stripes if they flew in a combat area, and then only after they survived at least five missions. I can buy that. That would explain why my uncle remained a corporal even though he was a gunner for B-29s - he never made it overseas.

It would be nice to find that policy in writing somewhere - I'm sure it is (I just don't know where). I also wonder if that practice varied from air force to air force, theater to theater, or if it was universal.

Do you recall what rank your instructors were in flexible gunnery school?

Kevin

Kevin,

Aerial Gunnery Instructor - MOS 2554

Although in no way definitive, the below indicates Aerial Gunnery Instructors had the rank of at least S/SGT.

Andy


http://www.rootsweb.com/~txnavarr/war/world_war_ii/stories_page_2.htm


ARMY AIR FIELD, Ardmore, Okla., March 10 - The Nelson twins from Dawson, Texas are together again. When S-Sgt, Howell B. Nelson and his brother Sgt Harold O., both 22, enlisted July 1, 1942, at Corsicana, Texas, they were together only 10 days at the reception center Camp Wolters, Texas.

Howell was transferred to Sheppard Field for his basic training, then went on to become an aerial gunner at the AAF school, Las Vegas, Nev. Harold went from Wolters to Camp Parkley, where he was assigned to the medical detachment.

On January 13 of this year the twins were reunited, Harold being transferred to the army air field, Ardmore. Howell was transferred to Ardmore from Ephrata, Wash., November 1942. "Now we'll stay together," says Howell, "I guess we'll both continue in the army."

Howell, headquarters training section, is an aerial gunnery instructor. Harold, air base section (418), is attending the sight and turret school on the field and hopes to be reclassified as a gunnery instructor so he can catch up with Howell.

Howell seems to come first in the family picture - he was born first, Oct 3, 1921, and outranks his twin, being a staff. "I never pull my rank because it wouldn't do any good," he admits.

Kevin,...That was true for my crew..however, a lot depended on the rank of the person, who became a gunner...some had rank prior to becoming a gunner, and others started out in the lower ranks...several S/Sgt tail gunners, qualified for Flight Engineer, and because they did, then quaified for T/Sgt rank. They could have worked with the mechanics every chance they had, and since they were good with their assistance, would be recommended and obtained the postion.

I think it varied by Air Force, Theater, and circumstances....I have also heard of some crews who wanted every man to be able to take over any position, although, I am sure not all were promoted because of the training,

Jim :-)

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

My dad trained as a rradio operator in Souix Falls July-December 1942 then went to Harlingen Dec. 1, 1942 -January 14, 1943 for gunnery school. At Harlingen he received his silver wings, diploma, and promotion to S/sgt, he was previously a private.
Of his 9 missions he flew 4 as a BT gunner (who knows why?) and 5 as a RO; he was promoted to T/sgt Oct. 1943--the day he was shot down.

Tracey L. Jackson
Daughter of Harold E. Jackson
305 BG 365 BS, POW Stalag XVII B

According to my fathers records he was promoted from the rank of Private to the rank of Sergeant after he graduated gunnery school at Tyndal AAF and at some point between that time and a few months later when he shipped out overseas he was promoted to Staff Sergeant.

John W. Wingfield, Jr.
U.S. Army Aviation (1990 - Present) (AH-1 and AH-64)

Son of S/SGT John W. Wingfield
15th AF, 99th BG, 416th SQ (Oct 43-May 44)

I've been researching the entire B-29 training program for a while, and I believe that a fair number of Central Fire Control gunners remained corporals even after flying combat-several books I have read list missing/lost aircrew and corporals often are listed. Probably many of these men were promoted in the combat zone after flying several missions as happened on Jim's crew.
 
Scott

Dad was a radio operator/radio mechanic on the B-24 flight line at Harlingen AAF from late '43 to sometime in early to mid '45...about 18-months.  I'm figuring Harlingen was primarily a B-24 air field so sounds like your uncle got switched someplace along the line to B-29's.  Needs of the AAF and all.
 
Dad also worked the control tower at the gunnery range down there on occasion.  Makes you wonder if they ever came in contact in some fashion.
 
Where were all the gunnery ranges located that support Harlingen?  Dad can't recall exactly just where he went to do the control tower gig.  He remembers Hondo for some reason but he's not absolutely sure that's where he went.  It was a 'sub-base' of Harlingen wherever it was.  Was there more than one location?
 
Larry
Son of Cpl Charles Caldwell, Engineer Crewman, USAAF Crash Boat, P-258, Rey Island, Panama (Pacific side)

Kevin,
 
Another possibility (seldom mentioned) is that for reasons unrelated to the training or duty status, disciplinary action led to either a missed promotion, or to a reduction in rank.  The military has both "non-judicial," and the somewhat better known "courtmartial" processes.
 
Actual records of such action would have been in the units' administrative and in his personnel files, and for NJP this might be the extent of the record.
 
Best wishes in your search, but keep in mind that this occured 60+ years ago, and it is much like searching for a needle in a haystack.
 
 
Dan B. Odenweller

In a letter dated 12-04-1943 from my great-uncle he states:
 
"We learned today much to our sorrow that we will only graduate as corporals. I've never seen a more down hearted group of men. That meant a lot to us."
 
This was two weeks prior to graduation at Las Vegas Army Air Field. He was a Pfc at the time. They obviously had been under the impression that Sergeants stripes would be due.

My dad stated to me that when he left to go over seas, his crew took the southern route to England.  When he left the US he was a Cpl and when he landed in South America he was a Sgt. And by the time they landed in England he was a S/Sgt.  After a few missions, he was made a Tech/Sgt because he was the Flight Engineer.

Ron Hodges
Son of Tech. Sgt. Raymond Hodges
702nd Bomb Squadron
445th Bomb Group
8th Air Force

I dunno if theres anything more convoluted than the question of when / if air gunners got NCO rank.  In the research section online at AFHRA, there is a PDF file of a study " Flexible Gunnery Training and Recruitment in WWII " that goes into this question indepth, and it is hard to follow.   The gist of the matter, if I followed it correctly,  is that some went to gunnery school AFTER specialized training such as  Engineer, Radio, Armorer, and these guys were already Sgts.
Some went to gunnery school and graduated as Corporals, then went to specialized training schools, upon graduation there becoming Sgts.
From what I get out of it was;  if you had any specialized training such as mechanic/engineer, armorer, radio, etc,  you had, or got NCO stripes.  If air gunner was your only speciality, you got Corp. stripes...... Of course, then you get into the overseas individual unit commands, who might decide that all aircrew members would have NCO rank because it was thought they would receive better treatment than enlisted men if captured. 

I'm gonna re-read the AFHRA monograph a few times and see if I can get a better understanding and encourage everyone interested to go to their website and download the PDF file to study and give more insight on it.

SHAEF1944 American Veterans Museum

Some exerpts from the above mentioned study :
 
... Non-specialists or specialists such as airplane mechanics, radio or radar operators, and aircraft armorers were elegible for admission ( to flexible gunnery school ), provided they were below the grade of staff sergeant.  Upon graduation all enlisted men below the third enlisted grade who had graduated from an AAF school of any of the specialist types indicated above would be immediately appointed to the grade of Staff Sergeant, and all other graduates below the fourth enlisted grade would be immediately appointed to the grade of Sergeant. All graduates were authorized to wear a Combat Aircrew Badge .....
 
....... There were complaints from AAF Training Command that the Sgt and Staff Sgt  grades of graduates was too high, with the result that the Military Personnel Division of the Air Staff made a rule late in 1943 to the effect that specialist gunners might not be ranked higher than Sergeant, or other enlisted men higher than Corporal.   AF Headquarters, however, felt that the application of such a principle had the effect of lowering morale because it forced some to reduce their rank in order to become gunners......
 
........ Under existing  Tables of Organization, radio operators and mechanics, airplane mechanics, and armorers might train in grade up to and including Technical Sergeant, and other personnel sent to gunnery school to train as career gunners could not be above the grade of Sergeant.  In March 1944 it was decreed that specialists and career gunners might train in grade up to and including Tech. Sergeant and Sergeant respectively so that they would be assured of no reduction in rank .......
 
See what I mean by convoluted ?

SHAEF1944 American Veterans Museum

According to my dad's papers, he completed raido school, went for advanced radio and gunnery and was a staff sgt after completion and before leaving for England.  He flew as a BT guneer for a few missions, then radio and ececived his tsgt stripes just before being shot down.
tracey

Tracey L. Jackson
Daughter of Harold E. Jackson
305 BG 365 BS, POW Stalag XVII B

Hi all
Like Many here I had always assumed that Enlisted Men on a crew, Gunners, were at the very least Sergeants when flyin missions. It has already been on earlier post here, for the major reason of affording such crew members better treatment if they were to find themselves shot down and becoming PoW.
 
To my surprise however, whilst rsearching a specific mission 512 Merkwiller, involving the 40th Combat Wing, I discovered a number of crews on that mission were made up not only Corporals, but also PRIVATES! I first checked the crew lists prior to briefing and there they were, clearly listed. Again upon return, the de-brief reports complied for same crews also showed very same men upon return still carrying the same rank. This was August 3rd 1944.
 
It would appear that the premis that all Gunners were Sgt or higher was NOT the case in the ETO and certainly 1st Air Division, 8th AF certainly tha summer of 1944. Explanation is not clear. I did find in same research for August 1944, that losses of crews in the 1st AD had been fairly high, and so replacements were being stretched and in short supply. The description of men with no specialit trades, Radio or Engineer etc, having started out lower in rank explains some of this I guess.
 
Ian

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

ORIGINAL: Ian White

It would appear that the premis that all Gunners were Sgt or higher was NOT the case in the ETO and certainly 1st Air Division, 8th AF certainly tha summer of 1944. Explanation is not clear. I did find in same research for August 1944, that losses of crews in the 1st AD had been fairly high, and so replacements were being stretched and in short supply. The description of men with no specialit trades, Radio or Engineer etc, having started out lower in rank explains some of this I guess.

Ian

 
Ian,
That certainly is strange.  We arrived in the UK in Sept '44 assigned to the 1st AD (381st BG) at which time no one flew under the grade of Sgt. in our bomb group.
We "career gunners" (MOS 611) had been made Pfc's after gunnery school and then Cpl after Combat Crew training.  Prior to flying our first mission we were promoted to Sgt.  After 10 or so missions we were promoted to S/Sgt's.
It is hard to understand the disparity between our experience and that which you found in the records.
 
 

Bob Gilbert
Ball Turret Gunner, Goldin crew
381st Bomb Gp., 533rd Bomb Sq.
US 8th Air Force

Hi Bob
I agree, I found the information I unearthed baffling! I can assure you that the crewmen listed as Private are just that, not Pfc's, just a Buck Private. Written on crew lists as 'Pvt'. The mission concerned, was flown by 92nd, 305th and 306th BG's. The 306th had no-one less than Sgt ranks throughout, but strangely still flew one complete Squadron as ten men crews (the nine man crew had already been established for many weeks by then).. The 305th had a number of Corporals amongst the 36 crews they flew that day. The 92nd BG had the Private's, from memory three, plus a couple of Corporals for good measure.
 
I recall the microfilm for the 305th for August stated that they as a group had lost 83 aircrew through August, combat losses either PoW or KIA's. That almost add's up to 10 complete crews gone in thirty days. Not sure if this also accounts for temporary wounded, hospitalised crew.
 
I gained a feeling from reading the films that August had proved a tricky time overall, losses of both aircraft and crews. It might be a reason, only speculating here, that EM's with basic training, perhaps only just arrived, were thrown in at the deep end on combat. From a 305th perspective, I know a great number of new arrivals didnt get promotion to Sgt right away. Certainly groundstaff, a different thing I grant, continued to be Pfc's, Corps, etc for a very long time.
 
Again I go back to the long held beleif that aircrew EM's were given status of minimum rank Sergeant, fot better treatment in PoW scenario. Plainly, what I found on just one day in August of 1944, it didnt always work that way.
 
I feel sure also, that group Commanders had their own ways of running an outfit. (LeMay is a clasic maverick example!!). Having to work with what you had at any given time perhaps necessitated bending the rules and regs a little to make sure you could get the job done?
 
As with most of what we all discuss here on AAF, for us that were not there, didnt live that history first hand, it will remain a big unanswered question. Thats why we rely on men such as you, and Jim , and all of those of that era, to try and weed through the chaos of what we find and try and make sense of it all....
 
Regards Ian

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

According to the log my aunt kept concernig my dad. . .
My dad was in radio school June 10,1942, Sioux Falls SD; on to gunnery school Harlingen Texas July 14 1942 as a private. on to Gowen Field and Walla Walla WA for advanced radio and gunnery the records do not show when he was a Sgt but show he was a Staff Sgt Jan 11th, 1943.  His writings--he explains how he sent messages in code from signal tower, test on code and radio training, shooting moving targets, hours in pressure chamber,  "happy man I am in the air, received my silver wings, diploma, and promotion to Staff Sargent.  Maybe this gives an idea of the time-frame at this time.  I do know that he was promoted to Tech Sgt. Oct. 1943 right before being shot down.  I also know his crew that flew together to England and after all were Staff Sgts or tech sgts.  Does this amke sense?
Tracey

Tracey L. Jackson
Daughter of Harold E. Jackson
305 BG 365 BS, POW Stalag XVII B

hello everyone.  I thought I would send a copy of the postings about the sgt promotion to a few of the Stalag XVIIB men and see what they had to say--especially since they lived it!  here is one of the responses; the others were pretty much the same.   now, most of these men were in 1942-43 so it might have been different.
Hi Tracey.....Its Vince
I enlisted in Nov of 42....Went to Miami Beach for basic training..On Dec 23 went to radio school in Souix Falls SD ..Arrived there as a PFC..After six months there I was shipped to Kingman AZ for gunnery school.Received promotion to Crpl..After 6 weeks there I went to Boise ID for Ist phase bomber training with the 453rd BG....Received
buck sgt stripes there...Then on to March Field CA for advanced training and got my Staff Sgt stripes....Our crew flew the southern route to Brazil,Africa and then on to England..Recieved T/Sgt promotion before my Ist bombing mission...Of the 6 inlisted men there were 4 s/sgt's  and 2 t/sgt's.....Vince Pale    453BG 733rd BS *th AAF

Tracey L. Jackson
Daughter of Harold E. Jackson
305 BG 365 BS, POW Stalag XVII B