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John A Daniel

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War Story - 04/12/2008 03:28:20 PM
Ok, I will tell this "war story" as I heard it at my father's knee. As with all oral histories, and similar war stories, the truth may have been embelished. My father, the late Donald B. Daniel, swore that it was fact, and used this story as an example of why a good soldier follows orders, and as an example of the spy network that existed at the time.

The plane was called "Ten Hits and a Miss" and was part of the 741st squadron, 455th BG. As it happened on this particular mission a fighter, for reasons unknown to my father, decided to make a high speed pass, from the front to the rear of the formation, passing directly below "Ten Hits." As we all know, at the closing speed aproaching 600 MPH, from directly head on, and with frosted goggles, it is virtually impossible to tell a German fighter from an American fighter. For this reason all bomber gunners had standing orders, "if a fighter points its nose at you - KILL IT!" Following this order the nose gunner dropped his guns, and fired, cutting off the wings of the fighter. As it passed under him he was horrified to see that it was an American P-51. He called out over the intercom "HE"S OURS!" This may have saved the life of the pilot as the ball gunner has allinged his guns to rake the cockpit, and hearing the call held his fire just in time. The tail gunner called out "He's clear" to let the crew and the very upset nose gunner know that the pilot had bailed out safely. As the flight was outbound and still over allied held territory, it was assumed that the pilot would be home in due course. The flight continued on to the target and then returned that evening. Much to the amazement of my father, and probably others, the radio broadcast of "Axis Sally" knew the group number, the squadron number, and the plane name, Sally only wanted the name of the gunner, so that she could send him the Iron Cross First Class via the Swiss Red Cross. The gunner was called to the CO's office where he was told that he could have the medal as he, unlike the fighter pilot, was following his orders. The gunner declined the honor, despite much encouragement from his fellow gunners, but the only confirmed kill for "Ten Hits and a Miss" durring the war was one P-51.
Some years later I related this story to a friend who had served in the P-38's, based in Carignola, durring the war. He confirmed that all fighter pilots were under orders to never point at a bomber as the crews had strict standing orders to kill any fighter that came at them nose first.
<message edited by John A Daniel on 04/12/2008 03:30:40 PM >
Bob Gilbert

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RE: War Story - 04/12/2008 07:44:33 PM
John,
I don't really like throwing cold water on someone's good war story.  This story seems impossible and/or implausible in parts.
As to the gunners being instructed to shoot at any plane pointing his nose at their plane...that is TRUE and from any angle not just head on.
The nose gunner and the ball gunner would see the in-coming level attack at the same time, so the ball gunner should be shooting also.  If the ball gunner hadn't seen it, the lapsed time after the nose gunner realizing he had shot a '51 would be infinitesimal and by the time the nose gunner says "He's ours!" the fighter would be way past the bomber and the ball turret position.
As to the story on the medal, it seems fanciful but you never know.
As to some  pilot flying head-on through a formation of nervous gunners as a prank, it is possible but improbable it seems to me.
Bob Gilbert
Ball Turret Gunner, Goldin crew
381st Bomb Gp., 533rd Bomb Sq.
US 8th Air Force
Ron.Hodges

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RE: War Story - 04/12/2008 10:21:05 PM
Bob,
 
I agree with that the gunners where instructed to shoot at any planes that pointed their nose at their formation.  Dad when I asked him if they had orders for that, he said no they where instructed to shoot first and ask questions later.  Dad told me about when a P-38 was flying back from a mission and wanted to join the formation for protection.  The only mistake he made was that he turned his nose into the formation.  Dad said that every gun that could come to bear turned lose on him.  The P-38 rolled over on its back, dived for the earth, crossed way under the bottom of the formation, came back up to the formation and easied into the formation rocking his wings and waving the whole time.  The only question I had was, how could that many gunners miss their target?  Dad had no answer for that one.
Ron Hodges
Son of Tech. Sgt. Raymond Hodges
702nd Bomb Squadron
445th Bomb Group
8th Air Force
PA.Dutchman

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RE: War Story - 04/12/2008 10:51:50 PM


Your fathers unit may have been aware of the Germans trying to mix captured B-17s into bomber formations as mentioned here.

This is not exactly a Do 200, but it is a Flying Fortress captured by the Germans and was photographed at Orly Airport, Paris. This B-17 was placed into the hands of the ZS-1, Zerstörer Schule I (Destroyer School I) to be used to train German figher pilots in how to attack the B-17.

Fortresses without swastikas or other German markings were also used to join bomber formations and radio information to attacking German fighters.

This link will give you more information. Apparently they had done this before and there also was an Italian Colonel in a captured P-38 that shot down a B-17.   

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/luftwaffe/transport/do200/do200.html

Here is the link that talks about the captured P-38 shooting down the B-17.

http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/gp382.htm
 
This link will take you to what they believe to be one of the more complete lists of captured planes that the Germans had used for their own purposes. They had at least three P-51s during the war.

http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/capture.htm


<message edited by PA.Dutchman on 04/13/2008 08:02:46 PM >
Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

Son of T/Sgt. Ray A. Heilman, JR.
11 TH Field Artillery 1937-1940
Schofield Barracks
7 TH AAC 11 BGH 42 Sq.1940-45
Hickam Survivor 12/7/1941
AAC Armorer (P) 911
P.U.Citation1942
John A Daniel

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RE: War Story - 04/13/2008 04:32:34 PM
Well gentlemen I believe that this thread is quite properly labeled "war story" and that I opened my tale with a disclaimer of that fact. My father was not one for telling tales, or falsehoods. It may have been an exaggeration, or a total fabrication, I do not know. As I know of no instance where my father ever lied to me I tend to take the tale as at the least based on truth. In fact my father seldom talked about his war experiences, and then only very reluctantly, like many other combat vets. What facts I do know about his service have been pieced together over more than fourty years of bits and pieces. So debate the truth of the tale, as you see fit. Call him and me what you will. I for one will believe it.
John A. Daniel
PA.Dutchman

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RE: War Story - 04/13/2008 05:10:15 PM
Your father sounds like a good honest man and quiet hero and it is a great story!
 
During the Vietnam War a long long time friend of mine was doing Guard Duty at his base while recovering from wounds from his second tour of Vietnam.

A drunk Officer did not stop at the Guards Station to be cleared. He drove right past my friend and the other guards, he was very drunk. My friend pulled out his 45 to shoot as he had been ordered should someone do this kind of thing. They had no idea who might try to run the gate.
 
The other guard knocked my friends arm down so the round hit the black top.
 
The next day he was called into the camp commanders office. My friend was a Marine and the camp commander told him "You did the right thing yesterday, maybe a little extreme, but it was the right thing".
 
My friend was taken off Guard Duty and it was never mentioned to him again. However the drunk officer was strongly disciplined because he disobeyed the rules by driving through the gate and not stopping.

My friend was a long time neighbor. He was at this base with another long time neighbor who told us that this was a true story and he was there when this all happened.
 
Our friend was such a person who did exactly what he was told, and it was not hard to believe he would have done this.

So these kinds of things do happen in combat. Had the fighter been one of the captured American fighters maybe no one would have been around to tell this story.  
 
This link will take you to what they believe to be one of the more complete lists of captured planes that the Germans had used for their own purposes. They had at least three P-51s during the war.
 
http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/capture.htm
<message edited by PA.Dutchman on 04/13/2008 05:12:40 PM >
Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

Son of T/Sgt. Ray A. Heilman, JR.
11 TH Field Artillery 1937-1940
Schofield Barracks
7 TH AAC 11 BGH 42 Sq.1940-45
Hickam Survivor 12/7/1941
AAC Armorer (P) 911
P.U.Citation1942

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