and would try to pick them off first when they were out on a mission?  If so, what did they do to the Nazis to merit this?  My father (Russell Klingensmith -- WWII vet --  8thAF, 303rd BG, 359th sq, navigator, out of Molesworth England Air base) told me that and he could not remember exactly what he heard they had done.  Told him I would try to find out if at all possible.  Any information appreciated.

That belief has been around a long time.  Even though people will hold to that belief, my understanding is that it was not true, at least not that can be proven.  Plenty of people have analyzed it and written about that belief.  Even the most famous reason, that of a surrendered, wheels down B-17 of the 100th BG, firing on enemy fighters, hasn't been proven, and apparently at least a few other groups had the same experience.

I can't put my finger on it directly, but I recall some of those studies summarized and available on the website for the 100th BG Foundation.  The 100th BG has an excellent website you should explore:  http://www.100thbg.com/index.htm

If I can, I will try to find some of those links later when I have more time.

Kevin Anderson
- associate member of the 100th BG Foundation, although not
a veteran or related to one who was with the group, just friends
to several

The story goes that a battle-damaged B-17 had it's landing gear down which is an international sign that a combat aircraft is out of the fight.  When a Luftwaffe fighter flew along side to escort them to a German air field, the gunner's opened fire and shot the fighter down.  Supposedly, Goering put the word out that any B-17 with a "Square D" on the tail was to be attacked immediately.  Due to the high number of losses, the 100th Bomb Group became known as the "Bloody 100th".

I don't give much crediance to the story, but it does seem possible, although not intentional.

Mike Simpson
Webmaster & Unit Historian
445th Bomb Group (Heavy)
www.445bg.org
VP, 445th BG, Kassel Mission Historical Society
www.Kasselmission.com

I remember hearing the story that a B-17 had lowered it's gear, and then shot the Nazi escort plane.
I do not remember that it was designated as from a particular group, but it seems logical that it wasl.
We were cautioned, [briefed], not to do this!!
RHD

   This subject has been discussed before on the forum .   It has been researched by several authoritative authors.  The consenus seems to be that there is no evidence that this really happened, at least with the 100th BG.
   Martin Middlebrook (a highly respected author and authority on WW II aviation), wrote a book, The Schweinfut-Regensburg Mission in which he describes how he belives the story got started and also what he thinks happened after considerable research on the subject. (Appendix 4)
   Also, most surviving GAF commanders, including A. Galland, after the war stated that the fighters didn't go after any one specific Bomb Group, but that they would concentrate on a single group, i.e. lead group, low group, etc. in order to try and decimate that particular group.  An example would be the Munster Mission of 10 October, 1943 where the 100th BG was nearly wiped out.  They weren't on any vendetta toward a specific numbered group, however.
Regards,
Hugh

"Swords Forever"

Hugh:

You make a valid point about the GAF going after a single box - that happened to the 445th on several missions where they suffered moderate to large losses.  During Big Week, the GAF started making head-on passes, reducing their contact time, but increasing the chance of hitting the pilots and causing the plane to go out of control.  The heavier 20mm cannon of the GAF fighters well out-ranged the .50 cal machineguns of the B-17's and B-24's.

There used to be a painting of a B-17 (Square D on the tail) with it's landing gear down and a Bf-109 flying along side with the pilot pointing downward at the Confederate (now Commerative) Air Force Headquarters at Midland Air Field, outside Midland, TX.  I don't remember seeing a caption on the painting.

Mike Simpson
Webmaster & Unit Historian
445th Bomb Group (Heavy)
www.445bg.org
VP, 445th BG, Kassel Mission Historical Society
www.Kasselmission.com

The same thing happened (virtual Group destruction) to the 305th at Second Schweinfurt.

Okay, I had a chance to look at the website for the 100th BG to see what they have on the topic.

First, the label "Bloody Hundredth," as mentioned already, comes from high losses on some early missions, including Bremen and Munster in the same week in October 1943.  And that was after heavy losses at Regensburg earlier.  Stats show the 100th BG sustaining losses no greater than any other 8th AF group.  Ten missions, however, do stand out with high losses in that group's history:  August 17, 1943 - Regensburg, 9 lost; October 8, 1943 - Bremen, 7 lost; October 10, 1943 - Munster, 12 lost; March 6, 1944 - Berlin, 15 lost; May 24, 1944 - Berlin, 9 lost; July 29, 1944 - Merseburg, 8 lost; September 11, 1944 - Ruhland, 12 lost; and December 31, 1944 - Hamburg, 12 lost.  No doubt each of those days were sad days for the group.  The Munster raid was memorable as the group only put up 13 planes that day, and the plane that did make it back was piloted by Lt. Rosenthal, "Rosie," who at the time was a new replacement pilot to the group.  (Rosie ended up becoming a legend himself for the group, flying two complete tours, plus then some, including being shot down and evading capture, plus serving as one of the lawyers for the Nuremberg trials; Rosie died only in this past year).

Second, the plane supposedly attributed to the famous wheels-down surrender shootout, known as "Picklepuss", aircraft #42 30063, was later found not to be the culprit.  Both the pilot was interviewed, plus more significantly the GAF pilot involved in the shootdown of Picklepuss.  As mentioned already about the Martin Middlebrook book, there was another plane that supposedly has this distinction.  I haven't read Middlebrook's book, but a post I saw suggested it was a plane with the 390th BG, which was part of the same 13th Bomb Wing as the 100th BG.  (Which is still too close for comfort, as the wing often flew mixed groups in the early years when individual groups couldn't put up enough planes.  No doubt the 390th Bg similarly have records to suggest it wasn't them either.)  [e.g., http://www.100thbg.com/mainpages/history/history3/org100th_11.htm]

So, no, the 100th BG was not singled out by the Luftwaffe.

Kevin Anderson

In Harry Crosby’s book a Wing and a Prayer I recall that he mentioned the story in some detail. True or not, he said that when another group was assigned the letter O for a tail insignia they protested that it might easily be mistaken for the 100^th BG D. The legend was stong enough that ID letter was changed.

Hi all..
The 'wheels down' story has been in the 8th AF heritage for quite a while. There may be some truth, although I have not been directly involved on the aforementioned group allegedly involved-responsible, the 100th, and so wouldnt like to point a loaded finger in any diection on this subject! When you dig deep into these events, Like so many in WW2, the facts very often dont quite match up to the story you might wish to see and have confirmed.

There have been equally smilar events of Luftwaffe Pilots breaking off an attack, shadowng a crippled bomber and allow it and its crew to fly on, to safety. There are some alleged incidents of German's waving at the crew, and escorting them. On the flip side, there are many other instances too of US and British airmen dropping by parachute being gunned to death in their harness by reckless Luftwaffe Pilots. Myths and legends, hearsay have over run the history to some extent, making some of those stories more sensational. I have no doubt however that certain isolated  incidents did occure, but were very much a minority in the wider scheme of battle.

Al Crosson mentioned Schweinfurt and the ill fated Black Thursday 14th Oct '43. The 305th certainly got caught with their pants down. Poor leadership by Colonel Normand 365th Sqn , several failures during formng up to Wing then Division before departing the British coast all attributed to the planes of the 305th being out of battle position, and placed at a considerable disadvantage on the mission. The Luftwaffe, as they did many times over WW2, took advantage of that  foul up, and targeted the 305th mercilessly. There should never be any assumption that the men board those 305th planes did any less in either defending themselves as best as they could nor of their desire and duty to get on with the job and try and make best of a badly led situation. I Guess many would justifiably call the 'Schweinfurt' mission to be the 305th's achilles heel when recalling their combat history. I'd say only for the fact that early descisions made by one man, effected the outcome of the mission and cost the group such high losses.

Suggestions of this particular incident and any connection with the 'wheels down' alleged event cant be made. The attacks by the Luftwaffe on Oct 14th, as in many other similar missions, launched against many other groups, were the product of good fighter tactics employed by astute, well trained seasoned, Lufwaffe Commanders of their own forces. If the tables had been turned the llied fightes would have deployed similar tactics. Indeed overwhelming strength in escort forces caused such events to happen from 1944 onwards.

I have no doubt that the 100th as a group, its veterans in particular, and associated members that uphold their history, are always mindful of this often quoted incident, and the perhaps negative publicity it draws to them and their service in England in WW2. Personally... I dont beleive the 100th had any worse a record or time than any other group. They like us all lost many brave men in the ause of freedom. It was war that was meant to be won, and war is very bloody and dirty at the best of times....

Ian W

Ian White - 305th BGMA Hon. Life Associate, UK Contact and Organiser of next years 40th Combat Wing UK Reunion - May 21st-31st 2009

Thanks to all of you for the input.  I have relayed the information to him, as you have individually stated.  We both appreciate it very much. 

So far as German fighters allowing a crippled bomber to retreat without firing on it (as discussed by Ian White above)  see this link, from 303rd BG site; in particular the crew incident section where the crash landing of Scorchy is reported.  

http://www.303rdbg.com/359dahleen.html

You will see that my father and the rest of his crew were some of those fortunate ones  "...Our airspeed was only about 90 knots when two German fighters came up, looked us over, and for whatever reason went back down."

Again, many thanks.

back to your question if you are still interested.  German ground control would vector available fighters in an area towards a US bomber formation that may be out of line so to speak, giving the LW Gruppenkommandeur or any leader whomever was leading the German fighters the possible co-ordinates as to direction and altitude of the US bomber formations.  It was literally impossible for the radar and listening devices posed by the Luftwaffe to know which US bomber formation they were lining up the LW fighters to attack.  In fact in late 1944 and into 1945 ground control was starting to be ineffective stationing the LW day fighter forces sometimes in the wrong area of direction except to allow German fighters to be placed in a very precarious position with Mustangs at large.

does this make sense ?

I'll give just s short example of the awkwardness of the LW ground to air system.  On December 26, 1944 IV.Sturm/JG 3 with the heavy Fw 190A-8 was vectored into the direction of a US B-17 bomber formation, the LW leader could not see any US bombers and then was told to drop down through the clouds and "they" would be there......... well they weren't but was seen was a force of B-26 bombers instead.  The Fw's attacked from the rear and slaughtered the B-26's but also felt the Marauder forces sting in the hot engagment.

Erich

Nur die jenigen, die man vergisst, sind wirklich tot