PJP51
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Bill Larkins
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Paul: That is indeed a great Link and one that I have not seen before. But who is doing it? I find a lot of "I will add" or "My so and so" but I can't find the name of the person who is doing all that work.
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Terry T.
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Its look like perhaps some of the info came from the book "Directory of Airfields" US Army & Navy reproduction of the book were sold..I don't know if there still available anymore?
terry T.
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visalya
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I just visited the site Paul provided and noted the site owner says something I'd like someone to elaborate on if possible.
He states that Rankin AAF was not a real AAF since it was a contract facility. It is true that Rankin AAF and the nearby Sequoia AAF were contractor operated training locations. But why is it not considered a true AAF?...the contractor operations aren't even listed in the armyairforces.com database. At least one MOH recipient went through Rankin...
That being the case, why aren't they considered real AAF facilities? The staff were military officers although there were some civil service personnel on-site...there was even a CO. Weren't the students committed to a military obligation and in fact were service personnel even before they arrived for this training? If they washed out didn't they still have a service obligation? I would think the operation was paid for by the military although via a 'different' color of money since the funds obviously went the contract route.
I guess I just can't grasp way these installations aren't listed in this database and why they're considered less than a true AAF. Appreciate it if someone could break it down to my level.
Larry
Son of Cpl Charles Caldwell, Engineer Crewman, USAAF Crash Boat, P-258, Rey Island, Panama (Pacific side)
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jpeters140
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Lou Thole has three books on Forgotten Fields of America, with a fourth volume soon to be published, and there is another book... Directory of U.S.Army Forts, Camps, and Airfields (1789-1945).... by Tom Kneitel by CRB Research Books,P.O. Box 56,Commack, N.Y.11725. Another website I have not seen mentioned is http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/index.htm Jim :-)
James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions 99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45 M/Sgt USAF (Retired)
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bernies
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Don't confuse an Army airfield with a civilian airfield with an army unit stationed on it. Primary flying training in WW II was mostly conducted at civilian airfields. Tulare was a civilian airfield. Rankin Aeronautical Academy conducted training under contract to the Army. Army personnel were assigned to the 4th AAF Flying Training Detachment, which was stationed there, but the AAF did not own or run the field.
Bernie Shearon Push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. Pull the stick back, the houses get smaller (unless you keep pulling -- then they get bigger again)
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shooshoobaby
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Contract Pilot Schools - CPS
On 12/31/41 The Defense Plant Corp. bought all CPSs ( Except Tuscaloosa and Tuskegee).
Facility then leased back to CPS. All construction on NEW CPS funded by DPC.
To keep Civilian Instructors from being drafted , they were inducted into Army Reserve as Privates.
CPS were Commanded by West Point Army Officers - supervised all aspects of Training and maintaining Military Discipline. Army Pilots conducted all Check Rides. Army supplied training A/C at no cost.
Except for 1 school - these were all Primary schools.
Mike
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mbee53
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Sorry to correct you again Shoo-Shoo but there were 3 Civilian Flying Schools that taught Basic.
1 at Bush Field, Augusta, Ga.
1 at Brady Airport, Tex.
1 at Cal-Aero, Ontario, Cal.
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visalya
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Thanks gentlemen, I do believe I'm getting my brain around it somewhat. It was a contractor owned and operated installation where the AAF trained a cadre of personnel whom they controlled and administered to. They could then basically walk away when they no longer had a requirement with little money having been investment in the facility. Would make sense and be a smart way to do it.
Given these contractor operations and their mission, I'm still at a loss as to why they aren't included in the database on this site. They were part of the pilot training process. Perhaps they could be listed with an asterisk to reflect their status, but not listing them at all seems like a disservice to those who completed this phase of their training at a contractor site. Not something they had any control over...did they?
Jim...thanks for the lead on the book. I bought it yesterday online for less than $2...postage cost more :-) I have the three Thole works and look fwd to his next release. You have any intel on the fields he'll be featuring?
Larry
Son of Cpl Charles Caldwell, Engineer Crewman, USAAF Crash Boat, P-258, Rey Island, Panama (Pacific side)
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bernies
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I'm still at a loss as to why they aren't included in the database on this site. My memory may be wrong, but I believe about a year and a half ago there was a thread that included a posting listing all of the AAF Flying Training Detachments by number and location. Although there appear to be gaps in the list, there are not. AAF Flying Training Command allotted the numbers 1-50 to the Southeastern Center, 51-100 to the Gulf Coast Center, and 301-350 to the West Coast Center. The gaps are at the tail end of these allocations. You might try a search using the bolded term.
Bernie Shearon Push the stick forward, the houses get bigger. Pull the stick back, the houses get smaller (unless you keep pulling -- then they get bigger again)
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Guest
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Did the Corps of Engineers have a standard plan for the layout of an air base when they built stateside air fields during WW II? Someone had to decide how big to build the base and where to put the builldings. How was this decided? Was there a Table of Organization and Equipment (TO&E) for a Bomb Group? Was there a plan that stated "two 20x40 ft radio repair shacks within one block of the hanger"? Was it left up to the local Architect? Are there any manuals or guides on the layout of a base?
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jpeters140
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While I was still in Arizona, we had a person visit the CAF AZ WING, and I met him...he was the Engineer who had a set of drawings for the airfields in Europe and he told us there was another person who had the Pacific.
So yes, there was a standard set of plans which delineated the layout of the runways, taxiways, and which of course had to be adjusted for each airfield to fit the terrain. It gave specifications for the grading, and different layers of the runways, and drainage of the runways.
In the Pacific, the runways were constructed mainly by the CB's of the Navy...CB meaning Construction Battallions, a lot of whom were civilians under contract, who often were under fire from the enemy forces even as they were working.
Jim :-)
James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions 99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45 M/Sgt USAF (Retired)
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walkerarmyairfield
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Like some of you I have wondered about the design and constuction of the ArmyAirfields. I have some hangar construction books of the early 30's and these seem to be the style used for the Airfield Hangars. I live in the center of Kansas where a lot of the large bases were built for the B-29s and B-24s. A couple of the construction companies that built some of these are still in business and they are looking thru their old records for some info on their part in the construction of the bases. I know of one flyer that bought one of the bases that consisted of 200 surface acres of concrete The aircraft parking ramp is 5300 feet long and 550 feet wide also 5 hangars and 1727 acres of land. He had all the plans and construction details of the base but the relatives have lost all of these during the last 30 years. Maybe they will surface sometime. One son told me of seeing them once and how detailed they were. Knowing the government all was documented. I have studied the cost sheets on some of them and they list everything from telephones to the sidewalks. Costs are very well detailed. I just got a couple of B-29 wheels and 3 tires out of one of the bomb sight vaults on one of our local B29 airfields. The floors and walls of these bomb vaults don't have a crack in the concrete. Big steel doors that still work well. We really had our stuff together at one time to build all of these projects and do them as well as they did. Most of the 60 plus year old runways are in better shape than ones that were constructed in the last 5 years. Some hangars here still have the tar paper linings hanging from the rafters. Orignal light bulbs in the fixtures. The timbers look as good as the day they were put up there in 1942. They are tearing these hangars down around here as insurance is impossible to get on a large wooden structure like these. What do you do with wood trusses 142 long? Locals can't raise enough money to save a hangar. There must have been master plans for all this construction as these airfields have 4 smaller hangars that housed 1 B-17 or 1 B-29 and 1 big echelon hangar that Housed 2 B-29's with doors on both ends. Three runways and 300-400 smaller buildings with sewer and water treament plants and railroad spurs all arranged the same. You can still walk the bombing ranges in this area that they used and find short belts of 50 cal ammo. Maybe something will show up relating to the constuction. If and when it surfaces I will post it. Phillip
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SHAEF1944
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Washlong, it looks from what I've just been reading that air base plans in the US were not built to " plan ", but each was constructed based on existing conditions at the site. Following are a couple of quotes from US Air Force Historical Study No.69, " Development of AAF Base Facilities in the United States 1939-1945 " " On Jan. 25, 1942 the AAF authorized station commanders at some 10 bases ( where construction was needed for the 84-Group Plan ) to approve the local layout plans. Early in March, it directed that layouts for expansion of existing stations or the construction of new bases should be prepared by the District Engineers in cooperation with local commanders and would be approved by the Air Force or independent command concerned. Copies of such approved layouts were to be forwarded to the Buildings and Grounds Division. OCAC, for information. " Later it states : " .... It was also necessary to emphasize that the delegation of authority to local commanders to approve layout plans did not permit any modification of established AAF base safety requirements. " Appears that layout was left up to local control, subject to safety requirements, which I am unaware of, other than such things as minimun runway length, dispersal of ordnance, etc... PS .. I should add, that the buildings on the bases, barracks, hangars, etc were built to standard plans, just the layout of the bases were done to fit local conditions and terrain. As to size, it depended on the projected use of the base. Heavy bomber bases had to have at least a 5,000ft main runway, and I think the Very Heavy ( B-29, B-32 ) was 7,000ft minimum. Heres the link to the AFHRA PDF file the above quotes are from http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/afhra/numbered_studies/467658.pdf
SHAEF1944 American Veterans Museum
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walkerarmyairfield
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SHAEF1944, Thanks for listing this reference. Sorry I added so much on my last post. I will not add things irrelevant in the future. Washlong. Walkerarmyairfield.
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SHAEF1944
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No, Walker, post all you want ... all info is good !  In fact, I was just in the middle of posting some info for you based on that post when AOL dropped my connection, so I'll try again ... Hangars were built to standard plans. Pre-war included : Air Corp 110' x 240' 1929-B Design Air Corp 1930-A, -B, -D, and -E Design Air Corp Double Hangar Type H Air Corp Type A-A Hangar, steel, two-bay U.S. All Steel Hangar Wartime construction : 120' Temporary Hangar 184' Demountable Hangar Type DH-1 Air Corp Technical School Types TUH-1 (steel) and TUH-2 (wood) Hangars Air Depot A/C Repair Hangar in single, dual, triple, and quad configurations Heavy Bombardment Type HANG-R-A Hangar Squadron OBH-1 (steel) and OBH-2 (wood) Hangar Transport Squadron Type HANG-E-A Hangar Very Heavy Bombardment MB-2A Hangar (B-29, B-32)
SHAEF1944 American Veterans Museum
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walkerarmyairfield
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SHAEF1944, Thanks for the good information on the hangars and runways. Like you stated the construction was modified to fit the location. The ones here in Kansas all seem to follow the same design but yet each one is a little different. The one plane hangars here must have been designed for the B17 as there are doors above the sliding doors for the tail of the B29. There are warning signs inside, warning the operator to be sure to open the top doors when moving the B29 in and out. Some fields had hangars that were tall enough that the sliding door opening cleared the tail of the B29. Walker started out with one runway and two more were added. Walker cost $8,860,000.00 to build. 2 of the Hangars size 202' x 117'4" cost $136,536.00 each. The one for the B29 was 128'x158'6" cost $193,068.00. The big double hangar 210'10"x202' with wings18'2"x40'10" cost $228,028.00. A 100,000 gallon concrete water tower 120'3" tall was $45,273.00 SHAEF 1944 Thanks again for the information. Good group here on this site. A lot of information is passed around, Phillip
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scott348
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Now you guys are talking my language! I've been researching the Nebraska and Kansas Second Air Force bases for the past few years and have some insight into the hangars built there. The original purpose of many of the fields was to be as a satellite field accomodating one squadron of a Bomb Group for training. Walker, Great Bend, Pratt, Harvard, McCook, Fairmont, Bruning, Grand Island, Scribner, and Ainsworth are representative of this plan. In this "first phase" of construction, the basic runway and taxiway system was built with one hangar large enough to accomodate a B-17 or B-24. The Nebraska fields used the OBH-2 wooden hangar, the Kansas fields employed the brick/wood style as seen at Walker and Great Bend. It is notable that no tail door is or was ever contemplated for these hangars. After only a very short time, the fields were expanded greatly into the stand-alone training bases that would service an entire Group on-site. The hangars constructed during "second phase" are almost entirely of the O-A (Squadron hangars) and P-A (Sub-Depot hangars, the larger style) design. These hangars were designed in 1942 and the original blueprints show the tail doors, so the Corps of Engineers must have been given the basic dimensions of the Very Heavy bomber that was in planning. For example, Walker's north hangar and the two small hangars on the south are O-A, and the large Sub-Depot hangar on the south end is a P-A, which is basically two O-A's put together. The second hangar from the north is the original Squadron hangar built during the first phase of construction. The photo I've included was taken during the training of the 462nd Bombardment Group (VH) and you are looking north at the flight line. Of special interest to me is a modification that was done to the Squadron hangars in order to accomodate two B-29s at a time. The back wall had a tail opening cut into it with doors and one B-29 was backed in with everything from the trailing edge of the wing aft sticking out. A second airplane was pulled in so that the two airplanes were nose-to-nose, and the main doors were modified to allow the second airplane's tail to stick out on the flight line side. I know that this was done at Herington and Grand Island (and possibly Kearney), but haven't been able to determine if anyone else modified their hangars in this way. Scott
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walkerarmyairfield
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Scott, Great information on the hangars. I have visited the Walker Hangar remains several time recently. The far north hangar is of the lower design with the rollup garage style door for the B-29 tail and is still standing with a lot of the roof material blown off by Kansas winds. The second one south recently had the roof fall in. The west end wall blew in completely 5 years ago. There was a broken bottom cord on the very west truss and finally gave way. The bottom cord had shifted about 8 inches and couldn't take the stress.It was interesting that this hangar and red fire brick used on the east front of the hangar a pretty fancy design. The must have had a train load of extra brick. The 3 hangars to the south burned years ago. The ashes are just like they fell. Do you have any more photos of Walker? These hangars were used for Wheat storage during the 60's and 70's when the Department of Agriculture paid 20 cents a bushel to store their surplus wheat. The large hangar at the south end was full of alfalfa hay and cought fire and burned to the ground. Walker has been my project for the last 12 years and I would like to visit with you about it. Please drop me an email if you would at walkerarmyairfield@gmail.com Great Bend has 3 hangars left . They lost the south two to fire. Pratt is in the process of tearing down one of the small hangars and they still use the Echelon hanger for a steel tank manufacturing facility. They tried to save the hangar that is being torn down but couldn't raise the money as it is too far gone. Thanks Phillip
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walkerarmyairfield
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Scott, As far as I can tell the 4 smaller hangars at Walker were never modified with the extra space. They had the original sidewalls and endwalls. The picture you have of Walker must have been taken around the middle of 1944. Have some aerial photos of all four B-29 fields of Kansas and The Walker aerial photos show the base complete but before the taxiways were build linking the ramp and runway l7&35. My thinking was that these aerial photos were taken in the fall of 1943. I was at the Russell airport just east of Walker for the last 10 years and found some runway construction documents for Russell's airport and they used the Wind Data (Wind Rose) from Walker field to position the new runway at Russell. Walker had the percentages for the wind directions on a chart. Too bad most of the Airfields burned all their paperwork. Phillip
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