Good day Gents!

I'm working on a banner for the 97th Bomb Group at the museum in KY.

I want to incorporate a different motto, changing the emphasis from the present motto, "First of the Mighty Eighth" to "First of the Heavies" referring to the Rouen Mission led by Major Paul Tibbets. However, I don't know much about the other theatres. Will I have to qualify the phrase by adding "in the E.T.O." to the tail of it?

John

_________________________________________

Son of Herman E. "Ed" Croft,
T/Sgt. Flt. Engineer of Nick Kantar crew # 90
342nd Sqdn., 97th BG (H)
Amendola Airfield Foggia, Italy
9 Oct. ’44 - May 25, ‘45

John,

If it were me I would add "in the ETO".
B-17's were conducting offensive operations in the Pacific
as early as late December 1941.

Bob

The first US heavy bomber attack in Europe was by the B-24s of the Halverson Provisional Group (HALPRO) on the night of 11/12 June 1942.

This mission by HALPRO was the first raid on the Ploesti oilfields
and was the first AAF heavy bomber offensive operation in the EAME.

The first Eighth AAF bombing mission in the ETO took place on 4-Jul-42
but was carried out by medium bombers.

First HB operation was conducted by 12 B-17's of the 97thBG(H) on
17-Aug-42. The target was the Rouen-Sotteville marshalling yard.

Bob

The RAF were flying LB-30's (B-24) in mid 1941 sub hunting.

Terry T.

Roger that Terry, but these were British operations and
would be more in a 'search-and-destroy' category
as opposed to a strategic offensive bombing mission.
I think John's focus is on the Eighth USAAF/HB op's.

Bob

Terry:

Wasn't the LB-30 a transport aircraft?

Ken

Ken Alexander
Son of 1st Lt. Clair B. Alexander Jr.
Pilot, B-24s: 10/12/1944 - 04/24/1945
15th AF, 49th Wing, 461st BG, 764th BS
Torretta Airfield, Cerignola, Italy

Ken,
I think that you are correct. The first batch of Liberators were originally ordered by the French, but they capitulated before delivery so that batch was sent to the British. The first six were designated LB-30As and were used as unarmed transports by BOAC. The next batch went to Coastal Command and was designated Liberator MK I. They had the ASV and heavy armament which helped to win the "Battle of the Atlantic".
Regards,
Hugh

Hugh   the equivalents were
LB-30  Liberator II  ( bombers with stretched noses )
LB-30A  Liberator  (to Ferry Command--BOAC ) Short nose.
LB-30B  Liberator I  ( to Coastal Command ). Short nose.

Some LB-30s were requisitioned by AAF and used world-wide , Java, India, Hawaii, Panama, Aleutians.
As either bombers or transports. They seem to have kept their RAF colours but not insignia.

Nick

OK, so if I understand the distinction Skybear Bob made - the HALPRO group was under British command in the Mediterrranian. Is that correct?

John

_________________________________________

Son of Herman E. "Ed" Croft,
T/Sgt. Flt. Engineer of Nick Kantar crew # 90
342nd Sqdn., 97th BG (H)
Amendola Airfield Foggia, Italy
9 Oct. ’44 - May 25, ‘45

Nick,
   I thought that is what I said.
H

jcrossed


OK, so if I understand the distinction Skybear Bob made - the HALPRO group was under British command in the Mediterrranian. Is that correct?

John,

HALPRO was in effect a task force assembled under the operational control of HQ/USAAF,
acting upon a request on the part of British Air Chief Marshal, Sir Charles Portal.
On 17-Jun-42 the HALPRO contingent (or Mission as it is often referred to) was absorbed
into the United States Army Middle East Air Force (USAFMEAF) which itself was absorbed
(12-Nov-42) into the Ninth USAAF.

Bob

Excerpt fome the 376th Bomb Group (H) The Liberandos :

Starting with 23 B-24 aircraft,and crews identified as HALPRO,and destined originally  to strike Japan, they were instead, the first Amercans to drop bombs on Europe,and on the Italian fleet in the Mediterranean. This detachment of B-24 crews was then mated with the squadron of B-17s,from India, and assumed a provisional group status, until orders were issued designating them as the 376th Bomb Group (H) with four operational squadrons.

Please keep in mind that the Mediteranean Theater was also considered to be in Europe, hence, the dual meaning of the European and Middle Eastern theater.

The Mediterranean Theater hit the "soft underbelly" of Europe.

Jim :-)
 

James S. Peters Sr. T/Sgt
B-17 Flt Engr, 27 missions
99 BG, 348BS, 5th Wing, 15th AAF
Tortorella, (Foggia#2), Italy
My Tour was from 12/03/44-06/19/45
M/Sgt USAF (Retired)

Welcome back, Jim.

Vic

Vic Walzel, brother of 1st Lt Leland H. Walzel, bombardier with the 93rd Bomb Group, 330th Squadron. KIA 6 March 1944 on his 25th mission.
www.lelandwalzel.150m.com

Ditto Vic Jim,
Your stump jumpin, ridge runner buddy from the "Blue Ridge Mtns".

John

Fair Winds and following seas.
John, (GM 3/C USS Frost DE 144)

Kin to LT. John W. Farnkopf
15th AAF, 52 FG, 4th FS; Madna, Italy
MIA 11/11/44 remains found 12/8/53

jpeters140


Excerpt fome the 476th Bomb Group (H) The Liberandos :

Starting with 23 B-24 aircraft,and crews identified as HALPRO,and destined originally  to strike Japan, they were instead, the first Amercans to drop bombs on Europe,and on the Italian fleet in the Mediterranean. This detachment of B-24 crews was then mated with the squadron of B-17s,from India, and assumed a provisional group status, until orders were issued designating them as the 376th Bomb Group (H) with four operational squadrons.

Please keep in mind that the Mediteranean Theater was also considered to be in Europe, hence, the dual meaning of the European and Middle Eastern theater.

The Mediterranean Theater hit the "soft underbelly" of Europe.

Jim :-)

Jim,

Glad your back on board.

Even though a great many of the Twelfth & Fifteenth AAF's operations did take
place over Europe (especially later in the war) the Mediterranean based operations
were nevertheless designated as a distinct theater of operations (EAME), separate
from those operations in Western Europe (ETO).

Bob

You are completely correct on this. If the jpegs download I have a photo of my father and his crewmates on Dec. 10, 1941 coming back from a patrol around Hawaii on their B-17. 

Attached Image(s)

Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

Son of T/Sgt. Ray A. Heilman, JR.
11 TH Field Artillery 1937-1940
Schofield Barracks
7 TH AAC 11 BGH 42 Sq.1940-45
Hickam Survivor 12/7/1941
AAC Armorer (P) 911
P.U.Citation1942

In the Book "One Damned Island after Another" On page 132 it states, this was in 1943 16 months after Hickam was attacked.
 
"The men of the Seventh accepted the change (from B-17s to B-24s) simply as further proof that they were a bastard outfit-foredoomed to fly airplanes that no body else wanted. The feeling against the B-24s persisted so strongly that General Hale found it necessary to relieve the Group Commander and one squadron commander of the 90 TH. group; the disparaging statements made by members of the group about the B-24 had reached even General Arnold in Washington.
 
The bitterness lessened but did not altogether die when on December 22 1943 Colonel William A Matheeny lead a flight of 26 Liberators to Wake Island

Sincerely yours,
PA.Dutchman

Son of T/Sgt. Ray A. Heilman, JR.
11 TH Field Artillery 1937-1940
Schofield Barracks
7 TH AAC 11 BGH 42 Sq.1940-45
Hickam Survivor 12/7/1941
AAC Armorer (P) 911
P.U.Citation1942

Gentlemen, GREAT THREAD!   If I may enter the fray!!!  First off, good to see you posting again, Jim, we all missed you!  I've been leary to jump in obviously due to my Lib preference (especially the FO WR Lib), but in trying to "understand the Thread," I've deduced the following: (A) it seems that the B-17 (A/C Heavy) is the most obvious; (B) the distinction between ETO and MTO based on functionality (per Jim Peters and Bob) makes sense; (C) the intent of the Thread, I believe, is targeted toward the 8th AAF; (D) one cannot include missions of medium/light bombers; (D) bringing into play early missions of B-17's shortly after Pearl Harbor be they recon or otherwise; and, finally, (E) ruling out British (French) use of B-24A, LB-30's etc.  This leads me to deduce without going too much deeper, only that the B-17, ETO (with or without including the MTO) holds the edge.  If one were to expand it out further to include the Pacific shortly after Pearl Harbor, then, by date, it would appear that P. A. Dutchman (Gregg) has a point.  We now have an A/C, "date window" and narrowing of "Theatre of Operation."  I believe it is now up to John for a final clarification!  Hope I didn't confuse things more!!!  Best Regards!  Steven

Best Regards!
Steven P. Puhl
Willow Run Historian  (RET.)  
Home of 8685 Ford B-24 Liberators
Life Member: Yankee Air Museum

A clarification of ETO, MTO may be in order.  Army Air Forces Statistical Digest, World War II defines the ETO as the 8th AF and the 9th AF beginning October 1943.  The MTO is defined as the 9th AF prior to October 1943, 12th AF and 15th AF.  It is worth noting that participants in both the ETO and MTO were awarded the same campaign medal - the Europe, Africa and Middle East Medal (EAME).  As such, the HALPRO mission was the first AAF combat mission in the EAME.  It was also the first on the continent of Europe, although it departed from Africa.

In the Pacific, as noted, B-17s were operating immediately after Pearl Harbor.  B-24s were operating at least by June 1942.